Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Any discussion on shaping, designing, repairing and riding surfcraft of any type or shape. Also a good place to ask the 'what board should I buy?' question.

Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby Goat » Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:07 am

It’s taken the use of my 3 boards to make me realise what I want to do on a wave. Got to say now, thruster slashing-vertical surfing with no glide whatsoever, doesn’t appeal to me at all. Trad longboarding doesn’t. prog longboarding doesn’t really inspire me anymore. To me, the most beautiful, inspiring surfing comes from the likes of rastovich on 'the free way' or the surfing here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3kIM0mXgzps

(video called ‘fish surfing’ on youtube, if above doesn’t load) . flowing, fast surfing, with loads of speed down the line, still retaining some glide.

Log – I love the early wave entry, the wavecount, the glide. But ive discovered surprisingly over time, that ive no interest in nose riding and walking. Whenever im on it, im trying to throw it around and pump. Its just too sluggish and unwieldy for the turns im (trying) to do and the feeling of responsiveness I want.

Carpet (single fin) – still earlyish wave entry, manage to get plenty of waves, fair bit of glide, have been using it as a training tool for working on turns. I like it…it’s a great all rounder, but it’s still rather boatish, not duck divable and not as responsive as id like. Currently out of action needing repair.

Quad fish 6'1" – love the manoeuvrability. Its so tactile. But at my current standard I really struggle to get onto waves and have any sort of length in the ride and it doesn’t have quite enough glide that I currently like. And it just feels a bit cramped. And it’s SO responsive, beyond what I really want or need (currently).

So my thoughts are, sell my current fish, get another quad fish, but an oversized one of say, 6’6” or 6’8”, which would still offer loads of manoeuvrability, but more forgiving wave entry, more glide and crucially, more fun/progression. Then down the line, if I get on well, perhaps downsize to smaller fish.

My only reservation is that people always say fishes should be short, or theyre kind pointless for their intended purpose. Any thoughts on this? And any recommendations of specific shapers for this - GS, B&W again, FJ?

Thanks
User avatar
Goat
 
Posts: 495
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:36 pm
Location: Bristol

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby flamesnm » Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:25 pm

This makes the most sense to me.

I have 3 large Fish, 2 x 6'10", a 6'8" and also 7'6" McTavish Carver Fish.

Now I understand they may not be traditional fish, and because of the size they may downgrade some of the qualities found in smaller fish, but the flat rocker, width and a loose fish tail all give ME the surfing I'm after. Mine all have a bit of chunk to them as well as I'm not the lightest.

As far as I'm concerned, it's about me :-D
flamesnm
 
Posts: 287
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 6:05 pm

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby Vince Noir » Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:25 pm

my advice would be to just stay on the fish for a while...persevere with it, and dont bother surfing coney beach...stick to rest for a while, its a better wave

you might not be able to catch loads of waves on it but thats cos youve been on the bigger boards for ages
User avatar
Vince Noir
 
Posts: 3434
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2007 10:12 pm
Location: Your mamma's hairy axe wound

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby flamesnm » Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:27 pm

Oh, and for a shaper, drop a line to our very own Royal. He just made me custom large ( ish ) fish, and although it hasn't seen the water yet, it looks the business.
He may try to talk you down a few inches, but stick to your guns.
flamesnm
 
Posts: 287
Joined: Sun Apr 05, 2009 6:05 pm

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby doubleoverfred » Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:28 pm

How wide is the quad fish, is it a traditional fish type shape or more modern? Maybe try a short fat twinny? (said the actress to the bishop)
User avatar
doubleoverfred
 
Posts: 119
Joined: Fri Jun 09, 2006 1:02 pm

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby finlay » Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:47 pm

I'm totally sold on longer fish - if its glide you are looking for try to find a shaper who will foil you one out one around 6'9'' and glass on keels (geppys if your budget stretches)

I'll be shaping one like this soon, alongside the the 12ft fish.
finlay
 
Posts: 587
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:34 am

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby Chris F » Wed Nov 18, 2009 2:58 pm

Do you mean true fish or anything with fish tail. I have a 7ftish big thruster fin fish (-tail, not genuine fish) and love riding it in anything from slack N Sea dribble to larger waist to shoulder size peelers. Was a step down from my old minimal, had to really clean up my lazy pop up and get in the habit of staying in a more of a lower crouch instead of the bolt upright I was used to to get used to the relative instability.
Chris F
 
Posts: 7041
Joined: Thu Jan 26, 2006 2:13 pm
Location: Yabberdabberdeen

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby finlay » Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:17 pm

it's probably been said better than this, but theres more to a fish than the split tail, and not all boards with split tails are fish. Boards I call fish are wider, flatter, (often thicker, though not a necessity) with widepoint ahead of center, and then the fact they have a deep, wide swallowtail.
finlay
 
Posts: 587
Joined: Tue Oct 11, 2005 8:34 am

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby Goat » Wed Nov 18, 2009 3:47 pm

Ok yeah, when i say 'fish', im talking about wide, flat, FAST, responsive. Along the same lines of my current one.

current dims 6'1" x 20 6/8 x 2 3/8

and im 5'10" tall, just shy of 11stone.

So not exactly a small fish for my size anyway. Perhaps just perseverence needed. i generally go back to it every few surfs, have a bad surf, so go back to carpet or log for a few sessions (as i dont want to waste sessions with little-no rides) and the cycle repeats..but the addiction to going back to the fish just wont leave me alone! the fish style of surfing is what i aspire to do. Hence why i was thinking of a larger fish to bridge the gap.

Maybe something like 6'6" x 21 6/8 x 2 6/8

i emailed Gulfstream, but have heard reports that theyre actually more foiled out that B&W.
User avatar
Goat
 
Posts: 495
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:36 pm
Location: Bristol

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby Jory » Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:03 pm

I think larger size fish have a place but the aren't quite the same as a "true fish" they aren't going to draw quite the same lines or have much manouverability since the rail line is pretty straight. Personally if you're looking much over 6 foot i would look at a refined eggy thing thruster or two+1 set up, slightly pointier thatn the carpet (but not much) & way more foiled, kind of like a bigger version of the board tudor is on in the video with more fins (which is an early diamond tail version of the tudor karma) (more fins will give you more projection and drive & a less pivoty feel than the carpet),but thats just my opinion. Your speeddialler is the right size for you, i think(without wanting to be mean) you're just a bit far down the curve of progression to get the most out of it right now. That said 6'6 is not super long. Honestly i just think you need to surf more

incidentally in that video, all those boards are pretty short
Dan Malloy is on a 6 foot pavel speeddialler and a 5'10 frye keel, tudor is on a sub 6 foot single fin and a 6'2 bonzer, gamboa is on a 7 foot hull & a 5'10 frye keel, rasta is on a 5'4 dick van straalen keel and machado is on a channel islands msg1 & 2 single fins that are around 6 foot

royal will make you a nice board as will diplock or tim mason (seasofcheese) Gulfstream are obviously very good at making fish (see carve) they'll make you whatever you want, most of their keel fish are based on the christenson design so pretty foiled out but they have two very beefy templated shapes that they were using pre the fishfry in 07 that were copied from proper 70's boards. They have A LOT of foam in!
User avatar
Jory
 
Posts: 1556
Joined: Wed Aug 31, 2005 2:42 pm

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby Barneyrubble » Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:31 pm

Aye - go for a bigger fish but should it be a twinnie or quad????

Keep the log for smaller days or when you want to chill.
Barneyrubble
 

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby Goat » Wed Nov 18, 2009 4:36 pm

Yeah youre probably right Jory, im just being inpatient. More surf it is then. It'll come in time im sure.

Looking fwd to this bloody wind dying down so can go for a surf!
User avatar
Goat
 
Posts: 495
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:36 pm
Location: Bristol

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby shackattack2 » Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:22 pm

I have a 6'4" quad "fish" and when you pump it along a steep wall it flies.....buuuuuuuuuuuutttttt, Its been gathering dust in me garage. Its still manouverable etc but my smaller fish have made it surplus to requirement....they cover more bases for me personally (However I have been on a shortboard trip of late. I prefer the narrower outlines for the waves round here).

Wanna buy a fish? :D
http://tomsandbasil.com/
shackattack2
 
Posts: 1735
Joined: Fri Mar 06, 2009 7:10 pm
Location: Sunny Coast

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby buttholesurfer » Wed Nov 18, 2009 5:26 pm

Hey Goat, when I was looking for a twin keel years ago, I was abit apprehensive about going small at 5' 10". After surfing it for 5 years I could of easily took of another 2", I even sit way out the back with my mate that has a 10' longboard , it paddles and planes like no other boards I've ridden. Stay small... I love mine and am thinking of getting a smaller one. Viva le twin fin! :-)
User avatar
buttholesurfer
 
Posts: 1777
Joined: Wed Oct 15, 2008 2:47 pm
Location: Don't bro me if you don't know me!

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby Ferral » Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:25 pm

from the sound of things i'd agree with jory and say a singlefin (or 2+1) retroish template would give you the surfing experiacne you are after as much or maybe more than a fish. i'd say a lot of people get hung up on fish when there are other non full on thruster shortboardy options going.

but for the time being stick with what you've got cos you jsut need practise
Ferral
 
Posts: 3923
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:59 am

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby royal » Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:37 pm

don't usually get involved with threads involving me, but for a bit of advice's sake....

There is nothing wrong with pulling the template out a bit, or more, and using the design for glide instead of jamming turns. Not that you can't jam a turn on a longer fish, it is just that wide of a tail does present a bit of a problem with such a long straight rail and added weight of the longer template. The smaller fish over come this with the shorter outline and your ability to dominate it easier.

The up sides are shed loads of trim speed, lots of waves and glide. Down side is lack of twitchy response, tracking(linear surfing) is increased, and corky feel when duck diving.

I've been making loads lately, and am more than happy to give you some pointers, wether you get one from me or someone else. I've got 4 on the go all from 6'6" up to 6'10" - where I personally feel the limits of the design over other options. However, as Finaly says you can get away with a lot more...just depends on how it is done.

I would say that GS and B&W are solid options as well if you wanted local.

Here's the last one...6'8" with green and blue tint with custom splashy bit...
Image
Image

I usually do them as quads because they seem to relieve a little of that tracky feel with so much board, but keels would be ok too. Like anything, it just depends on what you want to do with it...

I'd give your current board a little more time, and see what happens before spending money though, lol
learn the rules, so you can break them properly

rob lion
Royal
User avatar
royal
 
Posts: 3069
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:23 pm
Location: santa cruz, crowdifornia

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby ears » Wed Nov 18, 2009 8:51 pm

hey goat.. i think my experience has been pretty similar to yours.. swapping between a log and midlength (carpet) went down to a 6'2 keel fin and it was just too much of a leap, sold it and got a 7'2 egg.. beautiful board and exactly what i needed to progress on.. really versatile and super fast board and miles away from the carpet... anyway, still wanting to 'crack the fish' i got another 6'2 fantastic board but its pretty foiled and needs a decent wave and i'm still struggling with it to be honest.. anyway in a moment of financial madness, got hold of a 6'9 long fish simmons style tri fin which is an amazing board... really fast, very easy to chuck about and flies down the line holding a pretty high line.. its a lot of fun. It is different from the keel fin but its plugged a gap for me at the moment.. and the extra length gives me a lot of confidence in bigger surf Its been an expensive learning curve but i think well worth it.. the problem is i now have a 6'2 that is gathering a lot of dust. I'm determined to crack it but don't get in enough to risk having sessions where i can't get the board going... so if i were you if you can find something (like an egg or whatever) reasonably cheap then get that and spend a bit of time getting it dialled before trying your speed dialler again.. I'm sure it'll all click at some point and should be a bit cheaper than getting a new custom.. (if you do want a longer fish have a look at squiresurf.. my boards a beauty but rides even better than it looks) (( and in a shameless plug - yes my 7'2 egg is for sale)) Good luck - Cheers - Ears :D
ears
 
Posts: 352
Joined: Wed Jan 23, 2008 7:05 pm

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby griggo » Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:07 pm

I'm 6'2, 16 stone and 42 years old. Gulf Stream made me a 6'11 x 23 x 3 keel fin fish and I love it. Took some getting used to but now I think if I was fitter, and just a little bit lighter I could go shorter still. When I first started surfing I thought I would be on longboards forever, but I'm probably going to put my best longboard up for sale to go towards something sub 6'10. I've got a 7'10 surftech Donald Takayama egg as well which I've had for nearly 6 years, 4 of those in Orkney reefbreaks. Ideally I want to combine the custom service and knowledge of someone like Gulfstream with the bombproof qualities of surftech.
griggo
 
Posts: 46
Joined: Wed Oct 07, 2009 3:55 pm
Location: north devon

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby bunker » Thu Nov 19, 2009 7:37 am

Royal nails it - depends on what you wanna do. True fish surfing - projection off the bottom, wailing highlines, speed to burn - has its roots in sub six foot keel fins. Nothing since Hynd in Litmus has touched it for an illustration of how they should perform.
bunker
 
Posts: 1332
Joined: Wed Jan 04, 2006 8:54 pm

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby slipslide » Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:15 am

Have an 8ft fish and love it (twin fin future k1's), much prefer it to the single fin egg i have. It obviously wont surf like a sub 6 ft but it does give you a different feel to other boards. Are you going to surf like rasta on it no but is anyone going to surf like rasta? if you want a good mid length (by that i kind of mean 7ft- 8ft. i cant comment on above 8 ft as i have never ridden one) then the longish fish is a solid choice and is the first board i pack as it works in all conditions that i want to go out in.
slipslide
 
Posts: 889
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:47 pm

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby Goat » Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:28 am

Thanks for all the responses.

Sounds like I was barking up the wrong tree a bit and an egg of some sorts may well be the way to go to maximise fun and what achieve I want to do.

To put it another way – the magic carpet isn’t a million miles away from what I want to be doing on a wave. It’s just a bit sluggish, slow and unresponsive in relation to that goal and although it’s still the board I enjoy using most and currently a great overall development board.

Ideally, I’d have a similar (although I appreciate, it wouldn’t be AS much due to being more progressive) flow, glide and early-ish wave entry, but with faster down the line speed, more drive, and considerably more manoeuvrability and able to handle a wide range of conditions, from 1.5ft-6ft+. I don’t want slashy vertical surfing, but it would be nice to hit the lip now and then and to get some decent turns in.

Does such a board exist? Can eggs BE fast whilst retaining the above characteristics?

Initial thoughts are along the lines of a 2+1 egg, around the 6’8” – 6’10” mark considering my modest size/weight, (I was on a 6’6” TIKI egg in fuerte which I handled fine), with flexi centre fin.

So far have seen B&W Gideon egg, which looks particularily nice, or GS Omlette, tudor diamond egg. Or something custom…

Any ideas?
User avatar
Goat
 
Posts: 495
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:36 pm
Location: Bristol

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby Archy_is_God » Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:41 pm

Goat wrote:So my thoughts are, sell my current fish, get another quad fish, but an oversized one of say, 6’6” or 6’8”, which would still offer loads of manoeuvrability, but more forgiving wave entry, more glide and crucially, more fun/progression. Then down the line, if I get on well, perhaps downsize to smaller fish.

My only reservation is that people always say fishes should be short, or theyre kind pointless for their intended purpose. Any thoughts on this? And any recommendations of specific shapers for this - GS, B&W again, FJ?

Thanks


Goat-bear in mind that all different types of board can be made to ride differently and don't get too hung up on particular 'designs' only being able to offer certain things.

For instance, I've surfed thrusters that have had the glidey feeling of a traditional fish and little fish that feel for all the world like a high performance thruster. It's worth having a closer look at what's going on design-wise on each board.

If you want something that will offer the float you are apparently looking for then there are a load of different boards that would fit the bill... A big quad fish could be good, but will be happier if you surf it more laterally...

Whereas a 1980s style thruster of similar size and dimensions will still get you in nice and early, but will respond better to constant changes in direction, including a more lip-turn orientated approach if that's what you want....

A single fin egg of the same dims could offer a lovely smooth feeling, but will demand that you learn how to place the board in the right spot on the wave to get the most speed out of it...

However, I guess the point I was trying to make at the start of the post is that all designs can be tweaked for certain riding styles and conditions by a shaper who knows what they are doing.

Best thing to do is get on the blower to Royal, Seasofcheese, Gulfstream, B&W, Fluid Juice etc and see what they come up with. They will ask you the right questions to get the answers they need to get the board you need.

Personally, I find big fish awkward and a little cumbersome, but I think I would enjoy them on the right wave on the right day, but that's just me-there isn't any right or wrong and a lot of people love them :D
User avatar
Archy_is_God
 
Posts: 4099
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 9:52 am
Location: Whey out Whest

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby Goat » Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:53 pm

[/quote]

A single fin egg of the same dims could offer a lovely smooth feeling, but will demand that you learn how to place the board in the right spot on the wave to get the most speed out of it...

[/quote]

Yeah you make some interesting points Archy.

With regards to eggs then (gideon egg for example), if run as a 2+1, with flexi centre fin, does that open the board up to a more 'generate your own speed' approach, whilst still being smooth, floaty and flowing? Or is it the egg shape itself which means you have to rely predominantly on wave shape?
User avatar
Goat
 
Posts: 495
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:36 pm
Location: Bristol

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby Bearded Gimp » Thu Nov 19, 2009 1:59 pm

Ideally, I’d have a similar (although I appreciate, it wouldn’t be AS much due to being more progressive) flow, glide and early-ish wave entry, but with faster down the line speed, more drive, and considerably more manoeuvrability and able to handle a wide range of conditions, from 1.5ft-6ft+. I don’t want slashy vertical surfing, but it would be nice to hit the lip now and then and to get some decent turns in.

Does such a board exist? Can eggs BE fast whilst retaining the above characteristics?


McCoy Nugget could be the ticket. They're not cheap but they're very, very good. They do everything you say you want plus a bit more. Check out www.mccoysurfboards.com for deisgn info. Surftech do them and they're OK but at 11st the 6'6 might be a bit of a handful to duckdive and the 6'0 too short for you at the moment. Down the Line in Hayle have a few stock PU boards shaped by Geoff - I reckon a Pot Belly might be the answer as they're less back foot dependent than the other Nuggets.
Bearded Gimp
 
Posts: 241
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:37 am

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby Archy_is_God » Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:12 pm

With regards to eggs then (gideon egg for example), if run as a 2+1, with flexi centre fin, does that open the board up to a more 'generate your own speed' approach, whilst still being smooth, floaty and flowing?

You are on the right track with that thinking.

Have a look at Adrian Phillip's Widowmakers down at Fluid Juice as well for something a little different.
Last edited by Archy_is_God on Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
Archy_is_God
 
Posts: 4099
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 9:52 am
Location: Whey out Whest

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby Archy_is_God » Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:14 pm

Bearded Gimp wrote:
McCoy Nugget could be the ticket.


You could well be right, too!

I've got a 6ft singlefin Nugget and love it in certain waves.

I've ridden a friend's 6'6" and enjoyed that, too. Surprisingly loose for such a big board.

But you're right-they ain't cheap. They are, however, built as well as any surfboard I have ever seen.

Good boards :D
User avatar
Archy_is_God
 
Posts: 4099
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 9:52 am
Location: Whey out Whest

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby Bearded Gimp » Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:25 pm

I think the single fins are very much an acquired taste that work for some and not others - I remember an old thread on Swaylocks when Cheyne Horan used to post where he advised someone struggling on a single to get a thruster.

The standard nugget as a thruster on the other hand is more forgiving and rides not so differently to a normal shortboard, just better all round in my opinion. The 6'6 surftech (which I think is technically an interchange nugget) is an OK board as I said, but it does feel like there's a lot of length in front of you. Geoff's none too keen on the Surftechs and I agree with him that they lack a certain something that a PU board of that length might have. My 6'3 is the loosest board I've ridden
Bearded Gimp
 
Posts: 241
Joined: Wed Nov 04, 2009 11:37 am

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby slipslide » Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:36 pm

I have an unhealthy obsesion with midlength boards around the 8ft mark and have been thinking about an 8ft 2 nugget for a while. Has anyone ever ridden one? any opinion on how they would ride?
Sorry to high jack the thread a bit.
slipslide
 
Posts: 889
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:47 pm

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby Archy_is_God » Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:42 pm

Geoff's personal board is an 8ft Singlefin Nugget. Email him and he will tell you.
User avatar
Archy_is_God
 
Posts: 4099
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 9:52 am
Location: Whey out Whest

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby Archy_is_God » Thu Nov 19, 2009 2:54 pm

Bearded Gimp wrote:I think the single fins are very much an acquired taste that work for some and not others - I remember an old thread on Swaylocks when Cheyne Horan used to post where he advised someone struggling on a single to get a thruster.


That's right. I've had the board for a good few months now and I'm still getting the feel of it, particularly on my backhand.

I've had a 5'10 Potbelly thruster as well in the past that was relatively easy to ride, but maybe not as fast as the single. Wish I still had it....
User avatar
Archy_is_God
 
Posts: 4099
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 9:52 am
Location: Whey out Whest

Next

Return to Surfboards - Shaping and Board Design

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 1 guest