Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Any discussion on shaping, designing, repairing and riding surfcraft of any type or shape. Also a good place to ask the 'what board should I buy?' question.

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby Cuttlefish » Mon Nov 29, 2010 9:07 pm

rodent wrote:Nothing beatsthat big fat fish feeling on nice solid days :-D

Image

Image

6'4, plenty wide and thick

It's a great looking wave.
No denying that.
It has a great pocket behind you.
Doing a nice deep bottom turn on a bonzer and setting up under the lip may have felt ok :wink:
Hopefully your speed line straight out onto the shoulder was just the set up for a massive arcing cutback rather than outrunning the wave. 8)
User avatar
Cuttlefish
 
Posts: 407
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:00 am
Location: Sunshine coast, Qld, Australia

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby rodent » Mon Nov 29, 2010 10:09 pm

That requires ability :lol:
rodent
 
Posts: 810
Joined: Tue Oct 16, 2007 9:21 pm

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby royal » Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:07 pm

as a devotee of the fish platform, i have to say that length has more to do with a person's ability than anything else. Sometimes longer is actually harder to ride, in a certain way.

For example, i ride a 5'4"-5'8" in most anything. When I get on a 6'er it feels huge, and harder to control all that planing area. Now, that doesn't mean longer fish don't work, it means that you have to tweak a lot of things to make it as functional as it shorter cousins. Or, you'll be doing a lot of down the line speed runs to the shoulder where your turns will almost have to be due to said speed.

in the words of Pavel, you have to find the golden mean 8)

same goes with (mini) simmons and anything else similar. You get a fraking lot of speed that needs to be controlled somehow. I saw some guy running down the beach with a near 7' simmons, and cringed thinking about how hard that board would be to ride. And, he went fast allright, but didn't do many turns - that he made anyway. More like a slide fest, which in reality can be a ton of fun too, but if you're trying to get under the lip, or to it, it get's to a point where the design just doesn't fit. Not saying either style is right, just that certain factors of the design give it certain pros and cons. Simple mechanics.

There are a lot of interesting concepts working with both of these designs, but in general the best application is your height or smaller.
User avatar
royal
 
Posts: 3069
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:23 pm
Location: santa cruz, crowdifornia

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby Archy_is_God » Mon Nov 29, 2010 11:52 pm

royal wrote:as a devotee of the fish platform, i have to say that length has more to do with a person's ability than anything else. Sometimes longer is actually harder to ride, in a certain way.

Big nod in agreement with this statement, and with the rest of the post, actually....

The biggest 'true' fish I have ridden was 6'6" and it was a relentless juggernaut of forward momentum. I felt like I was surfing the board rather than the wave. I can't help but think that the amount of large fish shapes under the arms of beginners would be better replaced by eggy type shapes with more curve and a centre fin, especially in bumpy, onshore, sucky beachbreak (which is often on the menu at the local)

Saying that, I would love to try a 'longfish' on a nice clean, peeling wall....

Here's that freak, Kenvin, putting a bigger fish on a rail:

http://hydrodynamica.blogspot.com/2010/ ... gfish.html

...and some film of an older board:

http://hydrodynamica.blogspot.com/2010/ ... -2004.html

In the film clip, you can see the different lines he takes; a lot more lateral, bar the last few seconds from 2.24 onwards, where manages to go vert on a few turns. However, I would say he has managed this in spite of the board, not because it particularly lent itself to this sort of surfing. You can see how all that float is 'chattering' out of the lip on re-entry in a couple of turns. This may be because the length has exaggerated the bounce, but my feeling is that extra float may be the main culprit... Not knocking the surfing though - he's ripping!

There's always a trade-off, eh? That extra glide and planing results in a lot of outright speed, but like Rob said, you lose that deftness of touch and sensitivity I think. Smaller fish feel more, well, 'fishy' to me - short, skatey, fast and quick to accelerate through rider input. Depends what you like, I guess.
User avatar
Archy_is_God
 
Posts: 4051
Joined: Thu May 08, 2008 9:52 am
Location: Whey out Whest

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby 9ten » Tue Nov 30, 2010 6:46 am

Longfish are pretty fun. I had a 7'2" Pavel Quad that was super smooth and drivey. Rollercoasters on a long wall felt really cool on it. It had a similar highline lateral feeling to a short fish but that's about it.
9ten
 
Posts: 28
Joined: Mon Sep 27, 2010 4:13 pm

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby Barneyrubble » Tue Nov 30, 2010 10:36 am

Would the size of a fish not also depend on the size of the person too...as well as the surfers ability?

I'm just starting to get to grips with a 6ft 6 fish (the one posted earlier in the thread) from a mal and a 8foot nugget......you could say that I'm having a challenge :lol: :lol: but that is down to my ability which is lacking.... and age...but I'm a determined bugger :-)

I'm looking at it as a project to work on over time.....but my first thought is boy these things are quick to get going....if I get to grips with it I can see it will open up a new area of surfing for me anyways. Like the sound of that 7ft 2 longfish 9ten!
Barneyrubble
 

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby royal » Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:14 am

well, if you're 6'10" yeah, i guess the debate changes, but it is still ideally proportionate to you're physical height/weight. Ability is another part of the equation as well. As you improve, you find that going smaller - with these boards - is beneficial.

I never said a longer fish wouldn't be fun. Just that in comparison, it is actually harder to control at times, and forces us mere mortals into very lateral surfing. Never mind what the pros can do on them, as they can ride a door. You need to realize and be honest with what the design will do the more you extrapolate it out in length. Generally, that means longer lines.

Its the same as taking a normal skateboard and a longboard into a bowl. Both are ridiculously fun, but their lines are going to be totally different...
Last edited by royal on Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.
User avatar
royal
 
Posts: 3069
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:23 pm
Location: santa cruz, crowdifornia

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby Barneyrubble » Tue Nov 30, 2010 11:24 am

royal wrote:well, if you're 6'10" yeah, i guess the debate changes, but it is still ideally proportionate to you're physical height/weight. Ability is another part of the equation as well. As you improve, you find that going smaller - with these boards - is beneficial.

I never said a longer fish wouldn't be fun. Just that in comparison, it is actually harder to control at times, and forces us mere mortals into very lateral surfing. Never mind what the pros can do on them, as they can ride a door. You need to realize and be honest with what the design will do the more you extrapolate it out in length. Generally, that means loner lines.

Its the same as taking a normal skateboard and a longboard into a bowl. Both are ridiculously fun, but their lines are going to be totally different...


I ain't 6ft 10 :lol: :lol: Like your skateboard comaparison Rob - get exactly what you mean now. Reckon for me longer is better....just now anyways.
Barneyrubble
 

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby Chai Wallah » Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:09 pm

Got a 6'8" B&W quad fish for sale - perfect condition bar one very minor ding if anyone wants to try a longer fish
Chai Wallah
 
Posts: 1535
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:26 pm
Location: UK

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby Barneyrubble » Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:21 pm

Chai Wallah wrote:Got a 6'8" B&W quad fish for sale - perfect condition bar one very minor ding if anyone wants to try a longer fish


Is that the brown one that has been in the A1 Surf? - very nice board indeed.
Barneyrubble
 

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby Goat » Tue Nov 30, 2010 4:39 pm

I hadn’t thought of that before – i.e. having so much speed that you overtake the wave on a larger fish, yet lack the manoeuvrability to properly control the board, when smaller boards in the same design would make it easier.

Out of interest, do you think the same principle applies to hybrid fishy shapes (with a more shortboard-esque tail) with quad fins and wide planshapes, like the B&W puffin or a Rusty Dwart for example? It’s arguably too long for my size, at 4” longer than my height, but then surely this wouldn’t become a noticeable problem in waves under 6’?


royal wrote:as a devotee of the fish platform, i have to say that length has more to do with a person's ability than anything else. Sometimes longer is actually harder to ride, in a certain way.

For example, i ride a 5'4"-5'8" in most anything. When I get on a 6'er it feels huge, and harder to control all that planing area. Now, that doesn't mean longer fish don't work, it means that you have to tweak a lot of things to make it as functional as it shorter cousins. Or, you'll be doing a lot of down the line speed runs to the shoulder where your turns will almost have to be due to said speed.

in the words of Pavel, you have to find the golden mean 8)

same goes with (mini) simmons and anything else similar. You get a fraking lot of speed that needs to be controlled somehow. I saw some guy running down the beach with a near 7' simmons, and cringed thinking about how hard that board would be to ride. And, he went fast allright, but didn't do many turns - that he made anyway. More like a slide fest, which in reality can be a ton of fun too, but if you're trying to get under the lip, or to it, it get's to a point where the design just doesn't fit. Not saying either style is right, just that certain factors of the design give it certain pros and cons. Simple mechanics.

There are a lot of interesting concepts working with both of these designs, but in general the best application is your height or smaller.
User avatar
Goat
 
Posts: 488
Joined: Sun Aug 19, 2007 12:36 pm
Location: Bristol

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby Poo Stance » Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:06 pm

I'm guessing that on those hybrid jobbies the less tail area would take some of that speed away, coupled with more drag off the extra fin area?

Has rail size/shape been mentioned? Just seems that on the trad fishes the thickness of the rail also makes it harder to set a turn if your going too fast.
User avatar
Poo Stance
 
Posts: 3824
Joined: Mon Oct 03, 2005 2:07 pm

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby Ferral » Tue Nov 30, 2010 5:21 pm

hybrid boards normally have more curve in the tail planshape or bmups/wings compared to a traditional fish. this makes them more manuverable
Ferral
 
Posts: 3918
Joined: Mon Mar 20, 2006 10:59 am

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby browncurtains » Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:19 pm

barney / goat :shock: didn't you learn anything at school? :shock:
setting us up for some prime pommy bashing.....

that whole 'longboard' revival thing in the uk just threw so many people of the track...
browncurtains
 
Posts: 265
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby royal » Tue Nov 30, 2010 7:49 pm

hey guys,

yes, rail shape/profile has loads to do with it, and I personally think that some are too fat (including some of my own original ones.) I've been feeling up a lot of the mini boards from California recently, and they all have these honking fat rails on them, which just turns me off. But that's just me, and I'm like that I guess. It seems that if you've already got 3" or so of foam under your feet, why do you need that in the rails? They are great in fat waves, but if you're going to use the same board in solid surf, the rails need to be dropped a bit more - if you want to do more critical surfing etc.

Hybrids are just that. They draw on certain features of several designs to come up with the best of all, hopefully. Dwart-esque or rocket fish are good examples of adding a bit of width where you want it, and taking it away where you don't, like the tail which is the control center.

Don't take what I'm saying as gospel though, as there are many ways to make a functional longer board. But in terms of the fish, I do think there is a bias to going as short as you are comfortable. Funny though, a few of people I have made longer fish for - say 6'6" - have come back and gotten a 6'0" (or 5'10" even) as they have gotten better, or more comfortable.

If you read some of my original comments, I was defending the longer fish quite a bit. I do think they are fun, but they have a definite way of being ridden versus the shorter versions. Nothing wrong with either of them, but they are different.
User avatar
royal
 
Posts: 3069
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:23 pm
Location: santa cruz, crowdifornia

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby Chai Wallah » Tue Nov 30, 2010 8:14 pm

Robs only saying that as be knows the sooner I sell the quad the quicker he gets an order for a new board from me :wink:
Chai Wallah
 
Posts: 1535
Joined: Mon Sep 18, 2006 8:26 pm
Location: UK

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby zboy » Wed Dec 01, 2010 12:53 am

yes they are pointless! steve lis kneeboard was 5 and half or so in size ,smaller is good and slightly bigger 5.10 say, but any bigger they fail to be relevent as a fish and the appeal of the ride is lost or not the same.keep it real or true to the orginal dims.fair enough play with rails, foil, concaves, but not size.

i think fear plays a part for large fishes, im a large man, girl, im tall as well i want a fish i,ll go big just in case. :-) but hey what do i know :-|
zboy
 
Posts: 869
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:22 pm

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby Cuttlefish » Wed Dec 01, 2010 3:49 am

99% of surfers probably have no idea of the origins of fish.
Kneeboarders have lower centralised mass without the same weighting and unweighting that a stand up surfers stance applies.
A fish maestro like Derek Hynd's low stance is rarely replicated by those who ride fish as a mush busting long board substitute.
So the logic is applied...longer, wider, thicker and it will work just as it does with other stand up board shapes.
Fish food for thought....but ride whatever feels good. 8)
User avatar
Cuttlefish
 
Posts: 407
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:00 am
Location: Sunshine coast, Qld, Australia

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby monosurfer » Wed Dec 01, 2010 6:43 am

Michael Cundith makes what he calls a 'whale fish' that is 8' x 25.5" x 3.5". I'm frightened even thinking about how big you would have to be to ride it! :shock: :shock: :shock: It must work though as he really knows how to make a board. :shock:
monosurfer
 
Posts: 61
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:30 am

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby Cuttlefish » Wed Dec 01, 2010 7:22 am

Those boards are tankers aren't they Mono?!
I've ridden one of MC's 6'10" X 22" X 3 &1/8" fish for a spell while my shoulder was giving me grief.
The interesting aspect of MC's fish is the curve in the outline he does as well as putting his own templated twin keels right back near the tail almost like a mini-simmons.
They turn really well for their size and handle a good spectrum of wave heights.
I'd love to try a 6' without a resin tint from him though this size fish would have to compete with the MR twinnie and the lazor zap for moderate sized waves and my mini-simmons is providing all the small wave fun I can handle at the moment.
User avatar
Cuttlefish
 
Posts: 407
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:00 am
Location: Sunshine coast, Qld, Australia

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby monosurfer » Wed Dec 01, 2010 7:44 am

Hell yeah Cutty.

I thought the thing was a SUP , but no. I had to dig my nails into the wax when carrying a 23" wide McCoy to stop it falling out of my grip. I f##king love that Simmons of yours and was at M.C's to see if he made 'em or a SU Velo/ Burrito deluxe type hull, but no. Reckons they were shit in the day and they would be shit now. I'm a flat earth Luddite compared to him!
monosurfer
 
Posts: 61
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:30 am

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby browncurtains » Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:02 am

I've been feeling up a lot of the mini boards from California recently, and they all have these honking fat rails on them, which just turns me off.


classic :lol:
got to aggree... love feeling up mini boards from anywhere.

ridden a few longer single fin fish :shock: which kind of work
browncurtains
 
Posts: 265
Joined: Thu Jan 01, 1970 12:00 am

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby Cuttlefish » Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:47 am

Geez Mono,
You're only a 45 min scarper up the M'way to see Dan McDonalds creations.
Careful though...he may have one in your dimensions and you'll walk out of there with it under your arm.
My 6'4" Diverse quad fish had to be sacrificed to the volcano of the trade in gods. Pitched into the molten lava with no looking back. :lol:
He's been doing some new ones out of bamboo/eps and also some with a more pulled in nose in poly to satisfy the potato chip riders looking for more "performance" (sic).
User avatar
Cuttlefish
 
Posts: 407
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:00 am
Location: Sunshine coast, Qld, Australia

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby monosurfer » Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:44 am

Yeah I know Cutty, and I probably will :-D . I 'need' about three new boards to go with my four I own now. :? :? :?
It wasn't the Simmons MC was talking about either. :-)
monosurfer
 
Posts: 61
Joined: Thu Jul 08, 2010 11:30 am

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby royal » Wed Dec 01, 2010 11:57 am

look, here's the thing...

a fuller rail will work for someone that is still intermediate, or rides slack waves all the time, or something like that. They don't sink into the face that much, and can be stable at low speeds which is why mini mals and small wave thrusters have them.

once you get to the point where you want, or actually need to engage your rails - like taking off deep or late, or trying to turn on the face - a thinner rail is easier to sink thanks to a lot of things, and one of them is less buoyancy. By going shorter you are able to dominate your board more and force the rails into the wave, which is part of the reason why you see some guys riding stupidly short thick boards in big waves.

There are countless ways to compromise your rail shape/thickness just like there are ways to alter your planshape or bottom to help it turn. I think a simple approach is best as the more you f*ck with things the more wave specific can design can get.

I made a few 8'6" quad fish a few years ago. They were fun, trim machines that loved the long points of the NE, but if I tried to ride it in beach break it was a handful. Hence the skateboard analogy...

anyway guys, i'm just spouting my own thoughts on here. there are tons of talented shapers out there that make functional boards, as well as some of you backyarders. as long as you're having fun, who cares...
Last edited by royal on Wed Dec 01, 2010 3:20 pm, edited 2 times in total.
User avatar
royal
 
Posts: 3069
Joined: Thu Oct 26, 2006 7:23 pm
Location: santa cruz, crowdifornia

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby Barneyrubble » Wed Dec 01, 2010 12:40 pm

royal wrote:look, here's the thing...

a fuller rail will work for someone that is still intermediate, or rides slack waves all the time, or something like that. They don't sink into the face that much, and can be stable at low speeds which is why mini mals and small wave thrusters have them.

once you get to the point where you want, or actually need to engage your rails - like taking off deep or late, or trying to turn on the face - a thinner rail is easier to sink thanks to a lot of things, and one of them is less buoyancy. By going shorter you are able to dominate your board more and force the rails into the wave, which is part of the reason why you see some guys riding stupidly short thick boards in big waves.

There are countless ways to compromise your rail shape/thickness just like there are ways to alter your planshape or bottom to help it turn. I think a simple approach is best as the more you f*ck with things the more wave can design can get.

I made a few 8'6" quad fish a few years ago. They were fun, trim machines that loved the long points of the NE, but if I tried to ride it in beach break it was a handful. Hence the skateboard analogy...

anyway guys, i'm just spouting my own thoughts on here. there are tons of talented shapers out there that make functional boards, as well as some of you backyarders. as long as you're having fun, who cares...



An outbreak of common sense there Rob (the last bit especially.)
Barneyrubble
 

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby zboy » Wed Dec 01, 2010 3:37 pm

and another thing is fishes are not mush busters it saddens me to here that, what a waste of board design!!!!having ridden a twin for 2yrs souly jus me and my twinnie all yr round they are a big and good wave board reef point beach the bigger the better long live sub 6 ft fishes pref 5.4 to 5.10
zboy
 
Posts: 869
Joined: Sat Nov 07, 2009 3:22 pm

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby Barneyrubble » Wed Dec 01, 2010 5:58 pm

There's a chap on MSW (fellow Scot) who rides the proper loooooong Skip Frye type fishes...makes them himself. From memory he really enjoyed them but you were very limited in what you could do with them obviously. Sure it was about 9-10foot!

Funny - folk talking about 6ft 4 or 6" being big....that is SMALL when it comes to a board for me....but it is all relative to what you normally surf and your ability. I'm far more comfy on a 9ft board for example but variety is the spice of life and all that. All good fun.
Barneyrubble
 

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby Cuttlefish » Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:02 pm

I don't know about you guys but I reckon it's fun teasing design theory out of shapers like Royal.
Rob takes the time to make sense of different board aspects for laymen.
User avatar
Cuttlefish
 
Posts: 407
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 11:00 am
Location: Sunshine coast, Qld, Australia

Re: Are larger size Fish a bit pointless?

Postby slipslide » Wed Dec 01, 2010 9:07 pm

I ve got an 8ft fish. And love the board, not what i would take out in heavy conditions but in waist to shoulder it goes great. Think decent Saunton. Turns well (for 8ft) and is great down the line. Got a few boards and this is the first board i would take to the beach.
At the end of the day it all depends what you want out of a board. Personally i find this one ticks the glide/trim boxes for me. In the process of shaping a 7ft 9 bat tail quad as i like the fish so much.
slipslide
 
Posts: 876
Joined: Thu Dec 06, 2007 1:47 pm

PreviousNext

Return to Surfboards - Shaping and Board Design

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 1 guest