Son of/ Magic Sam.. vee bottoms..

Any discussion on shaping, designing, repairing and riding surfcraft of any type or shape. Also a good place to ask the 'what board should I buy?' question.

Re: Son of/ Magic Sam.. vee bottoms..

Postby Philchapman » Thu Jul 05, 2012 11:33 am

Wubba lubba dub dub
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Re: Son of/ Magic Sam.. vee bottoms..

Postby kayu » Thu Jul 05, 2012 3:27 pm

classic style and traditional glass is timeless....hope it never dissappears.
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Re: Son of/ Magic Sam.. vee bottoms..

Postby cproctor » Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:38 pm

Son of Sam vs Magic Sam ..... what are the subtle differences (if any) ?

I rather foolishly assumed they were the same board (i.e from nat's "sam" board) just named differently by different shapers.
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Re: Son of/ Magic Sam.. vee bottoms..

Postby Poo Stance » Mon Jul 09, 2012 5:42 pm

Sorry if re-post... http://www.surfresearch.com.au/00000522.html

thought it may be of interest in here.
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Re: Son of/ Magic Sam.. vee bottoms..

Postby seasofcheese » Mon Jul 09, 2012 7:56 pm

Magic Sam was Nats 66 board...Son of Sam is a copy of the now lost original - Paul Gross designed the copy with George Greenough.
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Re: Son of/ Magic Sam.. vee bottoms..

Postby royal » Mon Jul 09, 2012 8:03 pm

Image

no big ol' honkin' fin needed...
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Re: Son of/ Magic Sam.. vee bottoms..

Postby mister-griffster » Thu Jul 12, 2012 5:47 pm

I've been keeping my powder dry on this one for a while as Tim is shaping an SOS for me - so hoping to chip in with a full ride report etc - but as wind is blustery and waves are non-existent and I'm procrastinating from doing some work, I thought I'd chip in with my understanding of Magic Sam V's Son of Sam - hopefully some of the forums better minds can put me straight...

First off the 'Magic' Sam was the nickname for Nat's 66 board which disappeared - this was an evolution of an idea from the Aussies - taking Yaters spoon / Nolls Da Cat / Velzy pig as it's foundation. The Aussies had been tweaking this shape for a while, with the Likes of Gordon Woods producing Nat's board - but the whole 'evolution' approach was being honed via shapers / factory's throughout Oz - such as Keyo (as Bob McTavish also worked there) and plenty others - a bit of research and you'll see a lot of "Sam' influences in boards dated around '65-'66 - check out this Pig from McDonagh for example - pretty tight for the era - pinched rails, very foiled, Greenough Stage 1...

Image

The Magic Sam is a refiniement of idea's that were being thrown into the melting point at the time - rumour has it, Greenough was even foiling the fin while Nat was in the comp! - As everyone knows, the board dissappeared after the San Diego comp (and thus straight into legendary status) - either a shrewd move by Nat or someone is gonna pull that bad boy outta storage and pocket a fortune... i digress...

As Tim has rightly pointed out (the oracle on all matters Sam as far as I'm concerned) - the Son of Sam was born through Paul Gross / Greenough - Spence Kellog has tweaked the idea, blending it with a spoon...

So, to my mind (and I'm happy to be corrected at any stage as I could have the two things WELL mixed up) - The original Magic Sam had it's widepoint slightly back, flat in the nose going through to vee / rounded in the tail - very foiled at around 2 1/2 and pinched rails - fitted with a Greenough Stage 3 fin

The Son of Sam is more of an elongated hull approach, with it's widepoint slightly back, rolled belly, very foiled and pinched rails.

Most of the guys mentioned produce Son of Sams - their own interpretation of the design, modernised and tweaked with their own elements that essentially harks back to Paul Gross' design. However, Andrieni makes a "Magic Sam' - and perhaps Rob can verify this as he's glassing for the man so much better placed than I - the Magic Sam that Andrieni produces is more in the longboard camp than the hull camp (just) - it has a slightly wider nose, midpoint around center, a slight vee in the tail, with 50/50 pinched rails tailing off to a hard edge - the shape possibly has more in common with the Owl shape that he produces (that has a step-deck -not certain if his Magic Sam does?)

Finally - a bit of plagarism from the vlog blog (get over there and check it out) http://vicloggin.blogspot.co.uk/2010/10/magic-sam-v-son-of-sam.html

A fundamental influence on this design was the shift of the board's main area (or volume) to further back on the board. This was essentially what had come out of the Velzy/Jacob Pig Board 'chance' designs of a decade earlier.
It allowed for more 'drive' from the back of the board, and less focus on the trimming and noseriding control. This 'drive' was a fundamental change in surfing control.

This particular board was affectionately named ‘Sam’ by Nat Young, and he secretly felt that it had 'magical' powers of it's own. It had a rounded flat nose and a square tail. The deck was flat and the bottom rounded to allow for 'roll' in turning. The ‘thin’ rails were shaped to a 50/50 sizing – allowing maximum ‘cutting’ edges. Although harder to paddle, the idea was that the board’s thinner rails would allow the board to cut into the wave when turning. Combined with the 'pig' style volume placement - this would allow sharper turning, or ‘carving’, without the drag of the more traditional thicker Malibu boards. - and also drive out of the turns (bottoms).


The way I see it, ride either and you're going to get a nice smooth, fast ride from either board, suited to steepness on the face, and versatile when in the pocket - but I'll verify that when I get mine :wink:
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Re: Son of/ Magic Sam.. vee bottoms..

Postby Black » Thu Jul 12, 2012 9:09 pm

Aligator/crocodile :shock:
Never growing old together...
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Re: Son of/ Magic Sam.. vee bottoms..

Postby royal » Fri Jul 13, 2012 5:38 am

Grif...

Don't remember seeing and step in the deck of Marc's MS. I'll look next time he drops one off. But yes, more LB than Hull. Not sure about the edge in the tail, but it is possible. No concave anywhere, Greenough inspired fin - A Flex typically. SImple design by today's star wars standards, but therefore more versatile IMHO.

Real nice rails and foil.

Right up my alley, yet slightly different than what I would make.

Hope to get one from him soon...


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Re: Son of/ Magic Sam.. vee bottoms..

Postby Archy_is_God » Fri Jul 13, 2012 6:56 am

royal wrote: I'll look next time he drops one off.


Ah, the lifestyles of the rich and famous, eh?

:-D
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Re: Son of/ Magic Sam.. vee bottoms..

Postby kayu » Sat Jul 14, 2012 1:10 am

.....a lot of Greg MacDonagh's boards were shaped with eps cores,and glassed in epoxy.....a futuristic dude.. :shock:
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Re: Son of/ Magic Sam.. vee bottoms..

Postby royal » Wed Jul 18, 2012 5:42 am

Archy_is_God wrote:
royal wrote: I'll look next time he drops one off.


Ah, the lifestyles of the rich and famous, eh?

:-D


ha!

If only...
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Re: Son of/ Magic Sam.. vee bottoms..

Postby Philchapman » Thu Jul 17, 2014 8:48 am

Wubba lubba dub dub
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Re: Son of/ Magic Sam.. vee bottoms..

Postby kayu » Fri Feb 12, 2016 2:41 pm

9' 7" step-deck piglette
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Re: Son of/ Magic Sam.. vee bottoms..

Postby kayu » Sun Apr 03, 2016 7:55 am

Finished.....3 coats of waterbased epoxy.....2 coats of waterbased urethane UV......ridden twice in average 3ft waves....feels nice....fin maybe a bit a bit too deep?
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Re: Son of/ Magic Sam.. vee bottoms..

Postby Archy_is_God » Wed Aug 16, 2017 2:25 pm

Dragging this one back from the depths....

Anyone riding sub-9ft MS or SOS at the moment?

What kind of fin(s) are you running in them?
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Re: Son of/ Magic Sam.. vee bottoms..

Postby Jory » Wed Aug 16, 2017 6:56 pm

Some kind of 4a haS to be the starting point surely? Isn't it basically the fin greenough foiled for the original Sam?
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Re: Son of/ Magic Sam.. vee bottoms..

Postby Archy_is_God » Fri Aug 18, 2017 7:30 am

Almost definitely... But that was a little while back now and was just wondering if people have discovered something different subsequently?

I read somewhere that Paul Gross recommended a 4c foe his version
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Re: Son of/ Magic Sam.. vee bottoms..

Postby Philchapman » Fri Aug 18, 2017 12:37 pm

You might have read that Spence recommends a 4c also, on the first page of this thread?

I've been running one in mine for years, and feel no need to change. I've tried a 4a also, but prefer the looser feel of the 4c.
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Re: Son of/ Magic Sam.. vee bottoms..

Postby Archy_is_God » Fri Aug 18, 2017 2:50 pm

Aha! Funnily enough I think it may have been on another (gasp) forum... shows how well I read the whole thread doesn't it?
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Re: Son of/ Magic Sam.. vee bottoms..

Postby Philchapman » Fri Aug 18, 2017 5:02 pm

Have you got a sub 9' version then? If so, what you got?

I'm sort of looking out for a Hot Gen., but realistically I doubt I'd surf it any differently than my 9'4"...

Unless it was pumping beach break like :shock: https://vimeo.com/139961050
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Re: Son of/ Magic Sam.. vee bottoms..

Postby Archy_is_God » Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:49 pm

No, I've got ears' and mrkmrk's old Phil Edwards, but trying to get some influence from other zones to inspire fin choices for that whilst being a bit nosey about the smaller Sams...

My mind works in strange ways!

So you still love your Sam?
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Re: Son of/ Magic Sam.. vee bottoms..

Postby Archy_is_God » Sat Aug 19, 2017 9:51 pm

Must have been a battle getting that vee bot out in that beachie eh?
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Re: Son of/ Magic Sam.. vee bottoms..

Postby Philchapman » Sun Aug 20, 2017 11:01 am

No, not the easiest paddle out for sure. Must have got lucky, or have good duck-diving skills!

That's a nice board that Phil Edwards.

Yep, still love the Sam. Just ticks all the 'trim boxes' for me, and turns good too. Just heading out for a surf on it now.

Nothing wrong with minds working in strange ways! ;)
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Re: Son of/ Magic Sam.. vee bottoms..

Postby mister-griffster » Sat Sep 02, 2017 2:12 pm

Fins for the Sam, any sized sam... the 4a isn't a great fin TBH, not a standard one anyway... the volan one may be passable, but the standard version deadens the board a little, makes it tracky if not back in the box. Ugly. If you have one, the get your sander out and alter the flex... make it really, really soft... if you can keep the foil of the fin as full as possible. The soft flex eliminates the trackiness(sp?) of the base and adds a really nice twang allowing you to drive, carve and pivot sweetly. Whilst the Geenough fin was a stage for the original, it was more a stage 3 - long fin for a 9'4" and by the time greenough had foiled it had a lot of flex. The MD3 can work ok but suffers similar to the above and the 10" and 9" size ranges aren't quite right for a standard 9'4" but would suit a shorter version perhaps. Not a fan of the Larry Allison 4a in it which was a surprise to me - thought it would be the ticket.

I've generally found shorter based fins with a nice flex pattern work well. 4c is good, A-flex is better. I use a 9 1/4" on a 9'4 for maximum joy, but the 9 3/4" works nicely too if you want to work a bit more from the front. A Larry Allison flex (not the 4a version) is also a sweet fin - a bit more area than an a-flex of the same size. The PHD is a great fin too, high aspect with a nice twang - a longer one is great. On a shorter one you could also try a cruiser style fin, but it'll need the right flex pattern and a good wave. You could also try a skip frye, but the lack of flex in this template makes it a little inert for my taste, but a decent alternative to play with.

You could also try longer high aspect hull fins but again, only for a good wave - it'll loose a little drive but gain in a hull, forward trim feel.
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Re: Son of/ Magic Sam.. vee bottoms..

Postby Archy_is_God » Sun Sep 03, 2017 7:44 am

Very comprehensive and useful post Griff, cheers!
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Re: Son of/ Magic Sam.. vee bottoms..

Postby onefinleary » Tue Sep 05, 2017 3:00 pm

Mine same with a 4c but I changed it for a PHD 9.75". It just works for me.
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