Deadly V Bigjohn

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Deadly V Bigjohn

Postby thedeadly » Wed Nov 10, 2004 5:10 pm

ROUND 1


I think all kids should be taught to fight from an early age at school - that way bullying would dissapear, kids would grow up with more confidence and they would also be more healthy !
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Postby Bigjohn » Wed Nov 10, 2004 10:48 pm

I agree, I avoided a lot of fights by taking up Tang So Do, I was being bullied when I started it and the bullying stopped almost instantly.Both of my boys are interested in taking up a martial art and I will encourage them. It will help them gain the self confidence that can make bullies go elsewhere.
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Postby okerre » Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:04 am

me i just learnt to run faster than than the other kids.
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Postby exup » Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:16 am

i agree, both my kids are at school now and would hate for them to go through what i went through, I put in hospital many times when i was younger from being bullied!!!....i didn't know how to fight so was so would freeze and take the hammering. Not going to happen again i can tell you. I would rather my kids know how to fight and understand the art properly, this way i think its is easier to walk away when you know you have the ability to control of the situation, but also the ability to deal with if it follows you. It seems that people who learn how to fight gain a respect for what they can do and use their knowledge to prevent confrontaion. The nasty fights always seem to be the thug who watches jackie chan movies and thinks "shit i can do that" and goes hell for leather at the first opportunity..... totall ignorance......buy the way 'thedeadly'



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Postby Paddy.James » Thu Nov 11, 2004 9:33 am

Dont be stupid how is teaching them all to fight going to stop them fighting?
Its just going to mean wortse injuries when they do happen.
Give em all kiives that'll do it.
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Postby Bigjohn » Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:01 am

Paddy.James wrote:Dont be stupid how is teaching them all to fight going to stop them fighting?
Its just going to mean wortse injuries when they do happen.
Give em all kiives that'll do it.


Over to you Deadly! (Lights blue touch paper and retires)
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Postby slopsurfer » Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:11 am

I taught my son the art of the quick tounge, he can put down a kid with his quick wit so quickly they don't raise thier head for days.

He can also talk himself out of trouble when it back fires pretty well too.

Can anybody remember that old Jonny Cash song 'coward of the county'?

'walk away from trouble if you can'
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Postby thedeadly » Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:53 am

Can anybody remember that old Jonny Cash song 'coward of the county'?

'walk away from trouble if you can'


"sometimes you gotta fight when you're a man"

is another line in that song -

its all very well and commendable that your kids can talk their way out of shit - but what if the other person doesn't understand ie he speaks a different language or is just plain ignorant - i think the ideal is that you can talk your way out of trouble but still need to back it up when nessecary - people fast talking just winds me up even more cos i HATE politicians and anyone who talks like they do !
:lol: :lol: :lol:
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Postby thedeadly » Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:54 am

Give em all kiives that'll do it.


was that kiives as in a silent N :lol:
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Postby slopsurfer » Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:16 am

I must admit i taught my son the clean hard punch straight on the nose and run technique, 7yr old can't handle the shock :D he's got a good 5 minutes to get to safety.
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Postby Paddy.James » Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:34 am

The just think how bad you'll feel when you find out hes been usiung the punch you tauight him to bully others?
It wont happen?
Dream the fuck on.
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Postby frameline » Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:48 am

Im with paddy,

Kids should be taught some elements of self defence BUT not attacking styles. A child cannot defend themself against a full grown man, so all that leaves is defending themselves against other kids, you don't really want kids to be punching and kicking the shit out of each other. Kids should be taught self defence techniques such as how to escape if someone grabs you, but not toe to toe shit, and bullies should be dealt with in the proper fashion, if you teach your kid to fight, all they will do is fight, and they will turn out to be a right prick when they are older, never having learnt the art of turning the other cheek and being the better man....And lets not forget the terrible stories of kids getting stabbed and stuff in the playground, I am sure someone will pipe up with 'well if he had traing he could have taken the knife away' but thats bullshit, faced with more than 2 aggressors you gotta run...

Deadly once quoted, better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6, mate if you were tried by 12 you would lose, no matter how good you think you are.

I fear that some of you here are falling into the well subscribe catagory of someone who has done some martial arts training, then finding that fighting is not socially acceptable, have to find ways of justifying its need in modern society. No offence, but toe to toe fighting is a mugs game....and dangerous, there is always a better alternative.
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Postby slopsurfer » Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:51 am

actualy it does n't, can't say it won't but never has.

If you bring up your children to love and respect other they will not use force unless essential.

I was brought up in a christian home where turn the other cheek was practiced, due to this i was an easy target, i'd take my beatings and go about my business, i had my nose broken 3 times before the age of 12, i was never taught to fight and never did, i became extremly reserved and withdrawn.

On my first day of seconary school, word got around i was an easy target, i was conrnered in an ally behind the school by a couple of plebs looking to mess me up for fun, i descided not to turn the other cheek this time and beat the crap out of them, i held nothing back, the empowerment of the aggression led me to become a bully for a couple of years until i saw the light.

If i had been taught that it was ok to fight sometimes this would never have happened, i'd have had a more pleasant child hood and would not have become an aggressor.

I teach my son to love and respect others but also to respect himself and when necessary to defend himself enough to get out of trouble.
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Postby Paddy.James » Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:09 pm

Im trying not to quote from the karate kid or star wars...
Something about "with great power comes responsibility".
Or was that "wax on wax off".
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Postby slopsurfer » Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:17 pm

:lol: I know what you mean and i echo much of your sentiment.

i don't think anyone is advocating violence as an easy solution to problems ( well maybe deadly :) )

But when it comes to parenting it is not only naive but dangerous not to discuss the subject and correct conduct with you children. When i say taught my son i mean in the full sense, not punching a pillow, but the circumstances in which force may be needed and the limits to which it is to be excecuted.

Things might be different in your neck of the woods but it's rough up north :P
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Postby thedeadly » Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:18 pm

Deadly once quoted, better to be tried by 12 than carried by 6, mate if you were tried by 12 you would lose, no matter how good you think you are.


let me simplify that for you

i would rather go to court and be tried for manslaughter by 12 people than be carried to my grave by 6 !!

I was brought up in a christian home where turn the other cheek was practiced, due to this i was an easy target, i'd take my beatings and go about my business, i had my nose broken 3 times before the age of 12, i was never taught to fight and never did, i became extremly reserved and withdrawn.

On my first day of seconary school, word got around i was an easy target, i was conrnered in an ally behind the school by a couple of plebs looking to mess me up for fun, i descided not to turn the other cheek this time and beat the crap out of them, i held nothing back, the empowerment of the aggression led me to become a bully for a couple of years until i saw the light.


exactly the same as me only i didn't learn to hit back until i was nearly 30

I fear that some of you here are falling into the well subscribe catagory of someone who has done some martial arts training, then finding that fighting is not socially acceptable, have to find ways of justifying its need in modern society. No offence, but toe to toe fighting is a mugs game....and dangerous, there is always a better alternative.


no one trying to justify anything and as for its NEED in modern society - wtf - its always been there, theres always a need to defend yourself because everyone is different and doesn't sse the world the same way as you do. Some counties especialy those that have been war torn recently breed a kind of person where life is seen as cheap - some of these people who grew up (no fault of their own) in war torn regions then travel and settle around the world - in sierra leon for instance the "west side boys" would go to a village, round up all the children, give them guns and tell them to kill there own parents, if they didn't they would be killed too - then these children after having killed their relitives were then taken away to be trained as guerillas, they had no choice and nowhere to run back to because they had no more family - now that war was over a long time ago and those kids have grown up - who knows where they are now all fucked up in the head - maybe living round the corner from you now
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Postby frameline » Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:32 pm

thedeadly wrote:
i would rather go to court and be tried for manslaughter by 12 people than be carried to my grave by 6 !!



Ahh appologies, was a bit thick there, fair point :oops: :oops:

thedeadly wrote: no one trying to justify anything and as for its NEED in modern society - wtf - its always been there, theres always a need to defend yourself because everyone is different and doesn't sse the world the same way as you do. Some counties especialy those that have been war torn recently breed a kind of person where life is seen as cheap - some of these people who grew up (no fault of their own) in war torn regions then travel and settle around the world - in sierra leon for instance the "west side boys" would go to a village, round up all the children, give them guns and tell them to kill there own parents, if they didn't they would be killed too - then these children after having killed their relitives were then taken away to be trained as guerillas, they had no choice and nowhere to run back to because they had no more family - now that war was over a long time ago and those kids have grown up - who knows where they are now all fucked up in the head - maybe living round the corner from you now


But we were taling in the context of school children, and the need for violence in our society (regarding UK schools) and I am not sure how this is relevant, dramatic as it is. It is a bit of a mute argument, I see your point and agree that children should be able to defend themselves, but defend is the key word here, there is a far cry from controlling a situation, and beating the shit out of someone who annoys or threatens you. More time should be put into reducing the level of physical violence in schools rather than raising the bar. Do you think teaching martial arts to a violent 10 - 18 year old will make them more controlled, of course not, they will be just as violent but with the ability to infict more focused and concentrated abuse. I am not saying that martial arts have no place, indeed I trained for over 11 years, but beating up your opponent is NOT the complete answer.
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Postby thedeadly » Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:51 pm

Do you think teaching martial arts to a violent 10 - 18 year old will make them more controlled


well actually i do - most bullies are born from insecurity in themselves and martial arts will train them in Respect for others Respect for themselves self confidence and generaly turn them in to a better person - martial arts is about a lot more than punch,kick, its about a way of life, about a never ending journey, about having a sense of belonging to the universe its about curing yourself of the 3 biggest demons there are FEAR, HATE and ANGER and about building inner strength (spirituality)

i have trained "thugs" in my old karate classes (wado ryu - way of peace) and have mostly had positive results

theres nothing like the feelings of friendship and love you get after spending 3 minutes beating the crap out of each other (i like to look as it as dancing with each other) and the match is over and you and your opponant give each other a big hug and say " cool fight dude" and the feeling of respect for each other is big !
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Postby Bigjohn » Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:52 pm

As a youngster I had a very similar experience to Slop Surfer. I have never been in a fight with anyone who knew me since taking up a martial art, even though I had to give it up many years ago. True martial arts training is so much more that fight school.

Bullies prey on those who can't or won't stand up for themselves. My ability to stand up to the bullies meant that I never had to. Result= no violence. :lol:
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Postby slopsurfer » Thu Nov 11, 2004 12:59 pm

Do you think teaching martial arts to a violent 10 - 18 year old will make them more controlled, of course not, they will be just as violent but with the ability to infict more focused and concentrated abuse.


I tend to agree, through our churches kids/youth groups we get to see alot of violent and troubled kids, one of the keys things we do is listen to them and teach them how to communicate.

There is a boys club that does boxing training to keep the kids off the street it just makes them better bullies.
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Postby Bigjohn » Thu Nov 11, 2004 1:22 pm

Having martial arts skills gives you an edge.A man with a rifle is unlikely to attack a man with a tank, but if they both have tanks......On reflection if all childeren were taught how to fight the pitch would be leveled and the bullying would re emerge.
I think the answer is to equip childeren with the correct range of skills to deal with the bullies they encounter through life(this could include self defence). schools currently only recomend telling teacher. this is not enough because by the time the kids pluck up the courage to do this, things are often desperate.
Teach your kids to love by showing them love, teach them respect by respecting them, teach them empathy by empathising with them, be considerate to them and they will know how to be considerate to others. :roll:
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Postby slopsurfer » Thu Nov 11, 2004 1:26 pm

Teach your kids to love by showing them love, teach them respect by respecting them, teach them empathy by empathising with them, be considerate to them and they will know how to be considerate to others


I'm telling you BJ your a frustrated peacher :lol: that was eloquent
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Postby Bigjohn » Thu Nov 11, 2004 1:34 pm

Yo Slop Surfer. My mum is a lay preacher, my brother-in-law is a lay preacher, my brother is a missionary in india, my grandfather was a baptist minister and chairman of Spurgeons college and president of the London Baptist Association. You could say that its in the blood(except I'm adopted!!).
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Postby slopsurfer » Thu Nov 11, 2004 1:40 pm

You could say that its in the blood(except I'm adopted!!).


The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, even if the branch is graffted on :D
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Postby thedeadly » Thu Nov 11, 2004 1:41 pm

schools currently only recomend telling teacher


i have never understood this - if you "tell teacher" then you get marked as a grass which in turn will draw more bad attention towards you and make you the scum of the playground - i'm not saying beat the crap out of bullies but the only way is to stand up against them, if it means joining forces with other bullied kids then thats a better way, but in playground culture the last thing you want to is grass people up , martial arts is a way of getting the confidence to stand up to bullies (not beat the crap out of them)

if i ever get into a street fight situation i will do whatever i can to stop it fast ! this could include restraint, takedowns and holds or in extreme cases a knockout,a kick to the nads or running away, only the situation at the time can be dealt with at that time hence the need to know as many different techniques as possible - when you fight your concious turns off and your subconcious takes over - it will use the most appropriate tool that has been programmed into it (by repetative training (neuro muscular training)) for the job at hand - this process will also include all your deep seated morals to decide what to do, so a person with low morals will not care as much what he does as a person of higher morals -

the reason some people "freeze up" when put in a situation is because when the subconcious takes over (fight or flight) there are no tools in the toolbox to pick from so the subconcious panics, pumps more adrenaline into the system so you get an overload - i know, ive been there, on the plus side if you do freeze up the amount of adrenaline and by then dopamine and noradrenaline you have in your system , you wont feel pain from the beating till later
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Postby Bigjohn » Thu Nov 11, 2004 1:43 pm

slopsurfer wrote:
You could say that its in the blood(except I'm adopted!!).


The apple doesn't fall far from the tree, even if the branch is graffted on :D


Stop it dude, your giving me a lump in my throat :oops:
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Postby thedeadly » Thu Nov 11, 2004 1:46 pm

Stop it dude, your giving me a lump in my throat


probably a bit of apple got stuck :lol:
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Deadly V Bigjohn

Postby NorthSeaMonster » Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:19 pm

Ok, I'm going to throw my two bits in.

I'm not fighter... I'm not really a lover either yet (the good Lord's working on me). I do think that martial arts groups or boxing clubs (like the one Slopsurfer mentioned) have to be strict about a code of conduct. If you are going to give kids the skills to defend themselves (which inevitably gives them the skills to be offensive and aggressive if they have a mind for it) you have to demand a high level of responsibility, respect and courtesy. Some clubs are able to "police" themselves.

I don't think martial arts training and stuff can undo years of neglect in the home though... Martial arts training, and a code of conduct won't deal with the heart issues, but it may at least keep the kids in line for the sake of a civil society. It may give them a kind of tool to deal with all the pent up anger and frustration (even though the training can't heal them). If you can channel that into competative organized sparring that would be better than kids letting themselves go on the weak or vulnerable in the school yard.

Quite apart from issues of faith (and I'm a Christian) there is very little sense of honour in our society. There is hardly an ideal for kids to strive for. They see the violent criminals and they are filled with a kind of awe. We get it in most of the movies we watch. It isn't the peace loving character that sends chills down a youth's spine, it is the guy who commands the respect as he walks through the door because he can, and probably will, kill you if he feels like it. Couple that with neglect in the home...
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Postby u4d18 » Thu Nov 11, 2004 3:42 pm

I have been watching this for a while and have to add my penneth worth.

I moved to Thurso when I was 11 years old from Midlands in England. I ended up getting put up a year at school (not by choice...). So you can imagine english kid in a scottish school with kids 1 year older i.e. I got bullied.

I didn't like those times but as a Christian my faith helped me get through. I don't doubt that Deadly could kick my butt if we got in a fight, but at the end of the day it doesn't really matter because if I have faith then I believe that my life is in God's hands and whatever happens is because God allows it to happen. Therefore it is possible to turn the other cheek because we are in that situation for a reason and we also have hope that what awaits us if far better than what we have on earth.

It's funny that this discussion has just started because I've just finished a book by a 3 times world champion kung fu master called Tony Anthony who because a Christian. In the book he talks all about chi and his meditiation etc and his ability to overcome many opponents through his human training. But he also talks about his time in prison where he was protected by God in really amazing ways, when he relied on God and not on his own skills.

So in summary, my opinion is that if you want to rely on earthly methods of protection then martial arts takes the human body and mind and shapes it into a fighting machine, probably the most efficient you can get (think of the 1000's of years the techniques have been developed). However, that compares nothing to faith where faith the 'size of a mustard seed' can move mountains. I don't know kung-fu but I do have faith and I feel more protected through faith than I ever could through martial arts.
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Postby thedeadly » Thu Nov 11, 2004 5:09 pm

I don't doubt that Deadly could kick my butt if we got in a fight,


nothings certain - the thing is you would never be in the situation to find out because you are a decent type of person so i would have no need to defend myself from you

just like to point out as we have got onto "kung foo" now that the origins were invented by some of the most holiest of people on the planet - buhdist monks - these monks would in no way kill anything not even that anoying wasp or flea - they have the greatest respect for any form of life over every other religion in the world - so why did they invent it - simple - to protect themselves when they went out travelling - when a christian priest communes with his god is he not doing the same thing as a buhdist monk who is meditating ??
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