Deadly V Bigjohn

A place for regulars and new visitors to talk about whatever comes to mind. An opportunity to share your 'non-surf' wisdom with the rest of us.

Postby slopsurfer » Thu Nov 11, 2004 6:06 pm

when a christian priest communes with his god is he not doing the same thing as a buhdist monk who is meditating ??


No, the premise of eastern religeon is to empty ones self, often using mesmirism or self hypnosis.

Christianity teaches us to be filled with the Spirit of God and allow His consciousness to instruct us, fundemental differences.

In adition to which many eastern religeons deny the pressence of a supreme Diety.

This is fast become a theological discussion group :lol: who'd've thought
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Postby thedeadly » Thu Nov 11, 2004 6:38 pm

it is not about self hynotism or mesmurisation - its about clearing the mind of thought so that the mind can work freely and flow

here we go - quote from bruce again (did you know bruce lee had a degree or whatever they have in the states in philosophy ?)

I'm moving and not moving at all. I'm like the moon underneath the waves that ever go on rolling and rocking. It is not "i am doing this," but rather, an inner realization that "this is happening through me". The conciousness of the self is the greatest hinderance to the propper execution of all physical action.


and heres another one

The tools, your natural weapons, have a double purpose :

1. To destroy the opponent in front of you - annihilation of things that stand in the way of peace justice and humanity.

2. To destroy your own impulses caused by the instincts of self preservation. To destroy anything bothering your mind. Not to hurt anyone, but to overcome your own greed, anger and folly. Jeet Kune Do is directed toward oneself
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Postby slopsurfer » Thu Nov 11, 2004 7:10 pm

Jeet Kune Do is directed toward oneself


This is where the Christian faith is fundementally differing from eastern philosophy

The focus is on ones-self, you become the centre of your universe, all things in your reality are caused by you. You become your own 'saviour' if things are to get better it is dependant soley upon you and your ability, i fear this would lead me to deep depression if the salvation of myself and the world around me was dependant upon this for i know how weak and imprefect i am.

This is converse to the Christian Faith where God is the centre of all things, the instigator of life, by faith we accept His supremecy therefore finding salvation not in our actions but by placing our faith in Him to work good things through us, by submitting to his will.

Its like catching and riding a wave, if you are the focus of your attentions when surfing and think your calling the shot about what you will do on the wave, the wave will pick you up and beat you down, however if you accept the superior power of the wave and work with it as it accomplishes its purpose you can have the ride of you life.
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Postby thedeadly » Thu Nov 11, 2004 7:21 pm

The focus is on ones-self, you become the centre of your universe, all things in your reality are caused by you


It is not "i am doing this," but rather, an inner realization that "this is happening through me".


eastern religion is NOT about self - it is about realizing that just because you are human doesn't mean you're anything special - you have the same right of existance as every other living thing in the universe, no more ,no less - not to be the master of it - it teaches truth unblemished by religeous doctrines and laws - it teaches you to be at one with the universe not to become the center of it - to live in peace and not to harm other as by doing so you harm yourself - it is about self to the point it teaches you to see clearly - it teaches you to see things as they realy are - all christianity teaches you is to be nice, or else ! and to constantly give thatnks for something you never asked for in the first place
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Postby slopsurfer » Thu Nov 11, 2004 7:52 pm

all christianity teaches you is to be nice, or else !


Not true, it allows us to escape the binds and constraints of a carnal life in favour of one of fullfillment where we are at peace with our creator and His creation.

When you become aware of this principle you are not forced to give thanks it is an automatic outworking of your inner peace and thankfulness. Your life become a blessing, a gift you are thankful for not something 'you didn't ask for anyway'.
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Postby thedeadly » Thu Nov 11, 2004 8:14 pm

Your life become a blessing,


it already is

with our creator and His creation.


the universe was made in 7 days - so that means its completed does it

try to think of god as not the person who made the universe but the conciousness of the living thing called the universe which we and all other life is part of

btw - cheers for this - most people look at their watches and make excuses by this time - :lol: :lol:
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Postby slopsurfer » Thu Nov 11, 2004 9:05 pm

i'm enjoying it, it my pleasure

the universe was made in 7 days - so that means its completed does it


No the creator set into place the creation and upon the principles He created it continues

try to think of god as not the person who made the universe but the conciousness of the living thing called the universe which we and all other life is part of


The bible tells us that God is Spirit, He superceeds all things, the living thing called the universe is a created thing, God was before it's creation, He was the initiator of all things, to limit Him to the confines of His creation is to fail to understand anything of His essence. It's like me telling you you are nothing and can be nothing but a satillite installer as thats what i see you do. To fail to see the depths and many fascetts of the person you are woulds limit my relationship with you. So too with God.

Man through religeon, much of which claims to be Christian has tried to box God in, it's convenient and helps him to think he knows what it's all about.

But the truth is the creator has invested Himself into the creation and desires a relationship with His creation, this relationship can be seen in a paternal relationship with ones offspring, it is a reflection of how God desires to interact with man. Hence our Father who art in heaven and all that.
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Postby alec » Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:23 pm

No messing...
Sorry to drag this back, but I think Eastern philospophy and martial arts are being boxed in in the way you talk about your god.

I've studied Karate for years when I was younger which turned me into an effective fighter when the need arose.

I've studied Aikido for the last 13 years and that teaches something else, a certain state of consciousness and way of moving that means that when your attacker makes their move, you're not there and they are on the deck. This can be devastating but is fundamentally not violent. Which is why I'm teaching my daughter it. Inherrent in this is the idea that the universe is conscious and we are all aspects of that consciousness, resolving conflict between these different aspects as effectively as possible is just common sense. Whether you use a quick tongue, humour, or moving in mysterious ways is irrelevent if it works.
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Postby thedeadly » Thu Nov 11, 2004 10:58 pm

The bible tells us that God is Spirit, He superceeds all things, the living thing called the universe is a created thing, God was before it's creation, He was the initiator of all things, to limit Him to the confines of His creation is to fail to understand anything of His essence.


Voidness is that which stands between this and that. The void is all inclusive , having no opposite - there is nothing which it excludes or opposes. it is living void, because all forms come out of it and whoever realizes the void is filled with life and power and the love of all beings
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Postby alec » Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:06 pm

Deftly put.

The same as the feeling you get when you're on the wave and just part of it, just being there and it all flows, you're part of that moment and there is nothing else.

(Pretty rare for me, I'm too often pert of the wave in a very physical way :? )
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Postby u4d18 » Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:10 pm

Deadly,

Seeing as how you like these in depth conversations :P :P

I think you could argue till the cows come home about the differences in 'religion', but the one fundamental difference between Christianity and other religions is that the 'work' of the Christian is to believe in Jesus Christ. The work has already been done on the cross, there is nothing more I can do to please God than to believe and trust in Him. I'm not religous and I'm not a 'good' person. I try to 'love my neighbour as myself' but I often fail, but my hope isn't in my own actions (that's not to say I act carelessly, my new heart and conscience won't let me!!). The work of other religions is to take actions that can earn me a reward in the next life (whatever that may be), i.e. through my own endeavours I can justify myself before God or get into a higher state of enlightenment. Muslims teach that the judgement process weighs my good works against my sins and the heavier will determine my destination (heaven or hell), but who decides if one sin is worse than another? Also where do I go if the good works = my sins.... Or who decides if I deserve to move onto the next plane of enlightenment, do I fail because I didn't meditiate enough? With Christianity all I believe is that there is only one way to God and that is through acceptance of Jesus Christ. I.e. there is nothing I can do of myself to get to God, no work, however great or good will satify God. In fact I think Christianity is so simple and beautiful that people try to complicate it with lots of religion and traditions on men (you just have to look at most churches to see that!!!!)

I don't like to limit my God to this physical universe (even though it is vast beyond my imagination - I guess that just goes to show how weak the human mind actually is!!), in fact as a Christian we have to believe that God will destroy this universe one day because He says so in the word. As Slopsurfer says 'God is Spirit', He is beyond this physical creation and time and all these things that limit us. I read about these meditiations where people try to transend the mind in order to reach a 'higher plane', i.e. they are trying through their own control to better themselves in a certain way to reach some state that will provide inner peace. But my question is: does it satisfy them? Do they have to meditiate again the next day to reach that state? Once they reach the state is there anywhere else to go? What must they do to reach a permanent state of peace? Can they? As a Christian there is nothing I can do to better myself other than believe in and trust and love God with all my heart. I rely on God to do the work in me and I have a peace in my heart that is eternal because I now believe that God has given me a new spirit that is eternal. What did I do to get this? Believe in Jesus and everything He said and did. From the moment I put my trust and life in His hands I have had inner peace. I'm not saying my outside mind and life have been great, infact I would say that I am a really weak person full of failure and sin, but in this state I recognise that I need Jesus more than ever because in myself I can do nothing, but through Him I am fully satisfied.

Anyway, hope it's not too far off topic :roll: :roll:
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Postby Hokusai » Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:11 pm

[quote
Can anybody remember that old Jonny Cash song 'coward of the county'?

'walk away from trouble if you can'[/quote]

It was Kenny Rodgers, not Johnny Cash. :wink:

PS. Sorry if anybodies already said this. :oops:
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Postby Bigjohn » Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:17 pm

one of the unique aspects of the christian faith is the requirement to love others as christ loves his desciples. This ultimately can mean being prepared to die for your fellow man. Christians receive gifts (of the spirit) to help them in many ways. These can be staggeringly powerful in as much as you can " ask and it will be given to you" and it often but not always is. You can talk to God on a personal basis as a child would talk to a father. One gift even gives you a way to express the things that you cannot put into words, ever been hopelessly in love and completely unable to adequately tell the person how fabulous you feel about how wonderfull they are cos there aren't the right words? And as for christian faith healing WOW! Forget about the hyped american evangelist stuff for a minute, and imagine this. Your friend(non christian) is in intensive care for the second week. He has blood poisoning, DVT, MRSA, scarlett fever and every time you go to see him hes on another machine cos another organ is failing. The doctors say with luck he has a 30% chance of surviving(he is only 30). He is sedated and unconcious but you put your hands on him and pray to someone who you are not sure you believe in. This is a desperate act born not out of selfish desire or need but out of pure love for your best friend. Then you feel it happen, its that simple. Next day he is concious and fighting to survive again.This happaned to me in may(no bull).
The point is. what other faith can give you these gifts on earth, AND promise paradise when you die?
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Postby Frosty » Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:18 pm

WHEN WILL THE MADNESS STOP!!!
:twisted: :lol:
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Postby Bigjohn » Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:22 pm

Frosty wrote:WHEN WILL THE MADNESS STOP!!!
:twisted: :lol:

Blame Deadly, he started it!
:lol:
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Postby Frosty » Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:26 pm

I'm with u on this one bigjohn, he goes on and on and on and on and on and on, well u see where i am going with this. :lol:
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Postby Bigjohn » Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:33 pm

Frosty wrote:I'm with u on this one bigjohn, he goes on and on and on and on and on and on, well u see where i am going with this. :lol:

Its a good thread though, its cool to see some spiritual tendencies coming out of the woodwork. Anyway, it makes a change from cameras. (Can anyone recomend a cheep one for the kids?)
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Postby thedeadly » Thu Nov 11, 2004 11:55 pm

Blame Deadly, he started it!

apparently i didn't, God did it through me :lol: :lol:

i think a lot of the christian people contibuting to this thread would gain a great deal of wisdom and knowlede if the actual found out about what they are talking about when it comes to eastern philosophy because there is proof here of a complete lack of understanding - its the good old God is the only god brainwashing that the christian faith is all about marching round the world converting people to their ideas - other people beleive in different things, folks , and have a right to

just a thought - when you look at the diety based religions in the world they have been fighting and killing each other in the name of their gods for millenia where as the non diety based religions are the most peaceful
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Postby Bigjohn » Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:01 am

It is a fundamental of the Christian faith that there is only one God. You have to accept it to be a christian. There is an argument for saying that some other religions are worshiping the same God but in a different way. There is a modern tendency for people to try and pick and mix what they believe, causing all sorts of problems (christian spiritualism being a fine example of this).

As for religion and war, well you have a point there. It is very important to separate fundamental faith from that which is done in the name of religion (for example, there was not a lot of christian principle to back up what was done in northern ireland or even the crusades).
My own reason for stopping going to church is partly based on the way that organised religion hijacks what is basically a wonderful and personal thing. Its a bit like the state telling you how to fall in love and how to love your kids, then attacking some one else whilst claiming that because you love your family, you support their actions. There is also a high degree of politics and power struggles that go on in churches even on a local level. I do have the remnants of a faith and what is left is severely erroded but seems to be pretty indestructable, despite my best efforts! :roll:
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Postby u4d18 » Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:25 am

Deadly,
As a Christian I believe that the we should spread the gospel. But that doesn't mean to force it on anyone. If you look at the life of Jesus He never forced His faith on anyone that didn't want it. Also, people who claim to start wars over Christian religion are disobeying God's command i.e. 'Blessed are the peace makers for they shall be called the Children of God'.

If someone doesn't want to believe the same things I do then I will never force it on them because I can't force anyone to love God and what He stands for. It's a fallicy of the modern church and a lack of a relationship with God that makes them so arrogant as to think they can ram it down people's throats and 'force' them to believe.

I've read a fair amount on eastern religion from converts to Christianity and fact based books so I do know a little on the subject. I'd also say that from my experience there often isn't a very pure philosophical basis in eastern religions because the people all believe in demi-gods and evil spirits etc, therefore I don't think you could slot it into some pure category above the other religions.

Jesus Himself said that in the future people would start killing and say they were doing it in God's name but actually they were doing it for themselves. So all I can say when people say that religion has created most of the world's wars is that a true follower of Jesus would never do those things because our job is not to make the world a better place but to spread the gospel and hope that people accept it. That is all.

BigJohn, I don't goto an organised religous church either, they are often so twisted and dead that I wonder how anyone can go... But I do meet with a few friends and goto someones house on a sunday, mainly to try and be like the early church was in Paul's time. I.e. we're real with each other and real with God, half the time I didn't know many of the people at a formal church even if I'd been going for years, you just see people in their 'sunday best' and it goes for the personality too!!
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Postby Bigjohn » Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:44 am

Wise words u4d18. Like so many things, the fundamentals are where its at. Stick to the basics and you wont go too far wrong. It saddens me to see the C of E trying to be all things to all men. They are diluting the core values of the christian faith and teachings to try to gain more "appeal" but cannot see that this is destroying the strong principals that provide an island of purity and security in an ever deepening sea of immorality.

Is it me or is this thread getting very very heavy? :roll:
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Postby slopsurfer » Fri Nov 12, 2004 8:52 am

Wow guys,

that'll teach me to go to bed, it looks like i missed a good night of chat.

U4 nailed it, in so far as the key difference, being Jesus.

Deadly you said
Voidness is that which stands between this and that


I think i know what 'this' is but what is 'that'?

If 'that' is Diety then i can agree that there is a void between this and that. I believe it was caused by mans self will and failure to accept the created order. That void cannot be overcome by meditation or my good work, as my esteemed friend mentioned earlier.

Only that which is perfect can overcome the void, that which if perfect is Jesus.

Through His perfect life, death and victory over death (ressurection) Jesus made a route through the void to God, Those who accept He did this for them can now access the same privelages of communion with God by Following Jesus.
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Postby slopsurfer » Fri Nov 12, 2004 9:00 am

But I do meet with a few friends and goto someones house on a sunday, mainly to try and be like the early church was in Paul's time. I.e. we're real with each other and real with God, half the time I didn't know many of the people at a formal church even if I'd been going for years, you just see people in their 'sunday best' and it goes for the personality too!!


The church i minister in started the same way about a year and a half ago in our house, but it appears there are alot more people in the same boat as we have had to hire a public hall and now have 30-40 in attendance and growing :D

Real people, in real relationship with a Real God.

It doesn't get much better.
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Postby alec » Fri Nov 12, 2004 9:12 am

Interesting and moving story from BJ about your freind on ICU. I've seen Muslims Buddhists and Pagans go through similar experiences (when I was working in Hospital). I've also seen them pray to their respective gods/goddesses and nothing happen. This doesn't to me show that there is only one god/goddess or none, just that people can access something beyond the ordinary when the need is great enough and that sometimes things just happen. Explaining this is down to the individual.

All organised deity based religions can be manipulated by the state / right wing nutcases / e.t.c to justify all sorts of atrocities, that doesn't negate the ideas behind the religion, just the power structure that it has become. Anything that is absolutist means you have to decide whether stuff is either "right" or "wrong" leading to insane situations like in the States where stem cell research and abortion is seen (by some) as wrong but genetically modified animals is just fine.

Interesting discussion.
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Postby slopsurfer » Fri Nov 12, 2004 9:20 am

insane situations like in the States where stem cell research and abortion is seen (by some) as wrong but genetically modified animals is just fine.


Now this is going to end up a different thread altogether :)

Not that i agree with GM animals, i don't. But there is in most peoples mind a vast difference between the life of an animal and the life of a human.
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Postby alec » Fri Nov 12, 2004 9:23 am

Buddhists would disagree :wink:
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Postby NorthSeaMonster » Fri Nov 12, 2004 9:50 am

I wonder what you mean by "organised"? Is Christianity an organised "religion" (though I wouldn't call it a religion) because there is a basic core of beliefs that all Christians hold to? Christianity is made up of thousands of different denominations that pray and minister in different ways, but the fundamentals are the same (belief in Jesus etc). I'm a member of the C of E and I agree with Bigjohn's critic (strongly agree). I just don't think that it is necessarily wrong to be organized. I don't know where the virtue of "disorganised" religion came from. In my experience people who claim to have rejected organised religion have done so because they don't want to be accountable to anyone (God or a group of people) regarding how they live their lives. As attractive as that lack of accountablity may seem at first I think it is basically destructive to the human soul.

It is a heavy thread, but it is as good a place as any to discuss it. The way we think, or what we believe affects the way we live our lives. Our society is thinking less and less.
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Postby NorthSeaMonster » Fri Nov 12, 2004 9:54 am

I just hate seeing surfers stereotyped as non-thinking. :x
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Re: Deadly V Bigjohn

Postby alec » Fri Nov 12, 2004 10:07 am

" In my experience people who claim to have rejected organised religion have done so because they don't want to be accountable to anyone (God or a group of people) regarding how they live their lives."

Or maybe they are accountable to themselves? Your behaviour is guided by what you know in your heart to be the right thing to do, rather than fear of what other people/god might think.

Maybe not "disorganised" what I was getting at was the basic human desire for a spiritual dimention to our lives which doen't have to be expressed through a religion. It can be a simple as feeling connected with it all when out on the water.
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Postby slopsurfer » Fri Nov 12, 2004 10:12 am

I don't know where the virtue of "disorganised" religion came from. In my experience people who claim to have rejected organised religion have done so because they don't want to be accountable to anyone (God or a group of people) regarding how they live their lives. As attractive as that lack of accountablity may seem at first I think it is basically destructive to the human soul.


There is no virtue in not being organised, the bible gives clear instruction on how to organise the church.

The term'organised religeon' is not concerning the doing of things descently and in order, rather in the excessive formalisation of the church so that its people are constrained in thier life by mans principles or interpritations and not Gods.

In response to the question of accountability this is where much of the 'formal' falls down as scripturaly speaking the leadership is accountable to the body of people, in formal churches they are accountable to the next step up in the hierachy. This makes a mockery of biblical accountability and causes people to mistrust the church.
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