Hunting

A place for regulars and new visitors to talk about whatever comes to mind. An opportunity to share your 'non-surf' wisdom with the rest of us.

Hunting

A grand day out
6
30%
Tar and feather the buggers
11
55%
Really dont care
3
15%
 
Total votes : 20

Postby CRISPY » Thu Nov 25, 2004 6:42 pm

This just goes to show the ignorance and stupidity of some people. Have you actually been involved in a hunt? I haven't, and therefore I'm not going to judge these people. But you seem to be a real expert in your pronouncement, even though you didn't know that they don't dig foxes out.... Get a clue. I guess you'd be the sort of person that would attend thge Nurenbug rallies with Hitler if you're so blindly taken in by the system.


Nope never been involved in a hunt and yes they do dig foxes out. I don't want to get involved in the whole class thing, it’s irrelevant. The class war thing is just clouding the issue. Your Hitler references I find offensive as would my grandfather who fought for this country.

I'm not against fox hunting because I am not a hypocrite, if you want fox hunting banned but you want to continue with all these other animal 'cruelties' then you're a hypocrite and it's obviously a class related thing.



Basically, I find cruelty to ANY animals unacceptable. Not fox hunting alone. Just a couple of weeks backmy girlfriend and I spent the best part of an afternoon trying to catch a mouse under the floor boards. We evntually caught it and set it free. Much to the Displeasure of the Cats. The bottom line for me is. I do what I can in life to prevent unnecessary harm to the animals we live with. If an Animal HAS to be killed then it should be done in a way the causes the least amount of pain and suffering. Being disemboweled and left to bleed to death in the name of “sportâ€
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Postby Bigjohn » Thu Nov 25, 2004 8:55 pm

Hey Crispy, I hope you dont let those cats out into the garden. They kill for pleasure(I assume you feed them) and YOU have the power to prevent it!
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Postby thedeadly » Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:25 pm

Hey Crispy, I hope you dont let those cats out into the garden. They kill for pleasure(I assume you feed them) and YOU have the power to prevent it!


oh dear - giving human attributes to a cat - a cat doesn't kill for pleasure, it kills and plays etc by INSTINCT---- that is what a cat does

dont forget to take a baseball bat surfing next time everyone,then when a seal or a dolphin or porpoise comes along we can all paddle over and beat the crap out of it - we could get some jetskis and nets just to makesure they don't get away once they're in the bay etc and a few divers with cattle prods to help too - then when all the water is full of bits of dolphin and coloured pink then we can say " tally ho, damn good surf session, what" and all go down the pub and tell everyone how brave and fearless we are

thats how i see fox hunting
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Postby u4d18 » Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:40 pm

Deadly,
A dogs natural instinct is to kill as well, after all they are descended from wolves. Again we have the sheer hypocricy of people who are so focused on the media hyped pomp and ceremony of hunting that they fail to see the parallel with their own pet cats.

1. You let your cat outside..... Hunters let they dogs out side....
2. Your cat searches out and finds prey..... hunting dogs search for foxes....
3. Your cat will use it's instincts to stalk and kill the prey.... hunting dogs use their instincts to chase the fox and kill it...

So in reality what is the difference? You know that when you let your cat outside that it will go hunting. My parents have cats and they hunt all the time, even from kittens they are stalking grass and pouncing all over the place. So you know that every time your cat goes outside it has the potential to cruelly kill another animal... needlessly because you feed your cat. Exactly the same can apply to hunting dogs. Except in the case of Dogs, the hunters follow them and keep them under control so they only kill what they're meant to. For all you know you cat could be killing some very rare british bird and you'd be none the wiser. Therefore, the hunters are actually more responsible than you are with your domestic cat.

Again, am I missing something here, I really feel that this is so simple that I cannot for the life of me understand this total and utter prejudice against hunting, other than people are led by the media to believe it's something it isn't. You've read water ship down too many times and watched all the cartoons as a kid in whihc the fox is a valliant hero that saves the day, or that it's a cuddly animal that just loves getting attention. Sorry, they kill for pleasure as well as killing for food.
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Postby slopsurfer » Thu Nov 25, 2004 10:48 pm

So in reality what is the difference?


Sorry but i am now left with an image of dealy in red riding coat with a horn chasing his cat around the nieghbourhood encouraging it to kill sparrows :lol: :lol: :lol:

I'm not anti hunting but there is a difference.
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Postby Surf Monkey » Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:25 pm

i think it should be baned its barbaric shoting is diffrent the animal is normaly killed in one shot plus there hunted to eat, same with fish we eat what we catch and there killed the moment there caught

now try thinking of what it would be like to be that fox you have just had your house destroyed and now your being chassed by 100 dogs for hours across fileds in wich there is no esscape youve been runing for so long your totaly exausted thenyour setapon by a pack of angry dogs you get riped apart and eaten, think of the mental torment that poor fox is going though while its being chaseed just sit there and for a second try and imagin what it would be like


now you still think it shouldnt be baned?
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Postby thedeadly » Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:36 pm

Sorry but i am now left with an image of dealy in red riding coat with a horn chasing his cat around the nieghbourhood encouraging it to kill sparrows


i have specialy trained a herd of cats................

A dogs natural instinct is to kill as well, after all they are descended from wolves

actualy 75% of all the dogs in the world are the descendants of 1 female wolf - its been geneticaly proved
1. You let your cat outside..... Hunters let they dogs out side....
2. Your cat searches out and finds prey..... hunting dogs search for foxes....
3. Your cat will use it's instincts to stalk and kill the prey.... hunting dogs use their instincts to chase the fox and kill it...

So in reality what is the difference? You know that when you let your cat outside that it will go hunting


1 my cat does what it does when it wants , following its true nature

2 a fox is not natural prey for a hound. they have to be trained from puppies by humans to do that- they do it by training the younger hounds with fox cubs - in fact dogs will ignore foxes if they are not trined to kill them - true nature again

3 is the same as 2 but you wrote it differently

4 my cat hunts because that is what they do, by letting it live with me and feeding it i am taking it away from its true nature but also on its need to hunt everyday for survival
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Postby thedeadly » Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:43 pm

I WOULD LIKE TO POINT OUT SOMETHING HERE - I HAVE ASKED TWICE IN THIS THREAD WHY FOX HUNTERS CAN'T DO DRAG HUNTING INSTEAD - NO ONE HAS ANSWERED PROPERLY FOR THE FOX HUNTERS - THIS POINTS TO ME AS AN INDICATION THAT THERE IS NO REASON WHY FOX HUNTERS CAN'T DO DRAG HUNTING INSTEAD - THEY HAVE ADMITED SUCH BY NOT ARGUING ABOUT IT
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Postby slopsurfer » Thu Nov 25, 2004 11:49 pm

THERE IS NO REASON WHY FOX HUNTERS CAN'T DO DRAG HUNTING INSTEAD


Yes ther is a reason, they want to kill foxes, control the population, the vermin that kills chickens and terrorise old grannies(sorry thats wolves)
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Postby CRISPY » Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:28 am

Yes ther is a reason, they want to kill foxes, control the population, the vermin that kills chickens



Ahh that's what's been going wrong in china. All exess humans should be killed to control the population. Whilst we are there let's make a game out of it.........
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Postby thedeadly » Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:45 am

well - here's a weird thought - perhaps if we hadn't killed off all the bears and wolves that use to inhabit this country then the fox wouldn't be apex predator it is now - as for chickens - put them in the bloody coop for the night and maintain it - simple

the fact is to control the fox population you do not need 100 dogs and 30 horses with riders - all you need is someone competent enough with a gun (don't know the laws here for rifles, but that would be the answer) and resposible enough to chase any wouded and finish them off without any fuss - not a circus

i have an idea - lets do a one on one hunt - i'll be the prey and some one from the hunting side can come and chase me 1 on 1 and then when he catches up (i'll let him) we can have a damn good fight and see as much blood as we want
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Postby exup » Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:01 am

oh dear - giving human attributes to a cat - a cat doesn't kill for pleasure, it kills and plays etc by INSTINCT---- that is what a cat does


Well pointed out, and that is what is meant to seperate us from the animals the fact that we don't have to kill, we chose to. If this is the case then it should be justified, for food for example, not that i totally agree with that being a veggie, (feel free to take the piss, everyone else does) but at least it has logic and purpose behind it. Saying its to control population is a load of bollocks as their are better ways to do it than sending a load of toffee nose twats out on horses with dogs and horses to rip the poor buggers apart. It's a 'sport' and i use the word loosely. IT SHOULD BE STOPPED!!!

Yes ther is a reason, they want to kill foxes, control the population, the vermin that kills chickens


Does that mean that their should be another level on the food chain above us, to wipe us out for killing the thousands of different species every year......where does it end!!!

Ahh that's what's been going wrong in china. All exess humans should be killed to control the population. Whilst we are there let's make a game out of it.........


sarcasm at its best!!!!... the lowest form of wit......yet so effective
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Postby thedeadly » Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:10 am

just to totaly change the subject

not that i totally agree with that being a veggie, (feel free to take the piss, everyone else does) but at least it has logic and purpose behind it


misguided in my opinion - we as humans have blunt and sharp teeth and the sharp ones are not for ripping off lumps of cabbage stalk - we have our sucsess as a race because of 2 things - ability to eat nearly anything thats avaiable at the time - and communication - which suprisingly came from dogs, as dogs started to hang around with us humans they would eat scraps and in return give an early warning of anything approching the camp (still works, just ask a postman) as the dogs took this role over from us we started to lose our sense of smell because it wasn't needed (dogs and cats have a 2000 X more sensitive sense of smell now) - the area of our brain which was used for this is now used for language

but respect for anyone who has values like vegitarianism - i just like meat 8)
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Postby Bigjohn » Fri Nov 26, 2004 8:23 am

Surf Monkey wrote:i think it should be baned its barbaric shoting is diffrent the animal is normaly killed in one shot plus there hunted to eat, same with fish we eat what we catch and there killed the moment there caught

now try thinking of what it would be like to be that fox you have just had your house destroyed and now your being chassed by 100 dogs for hours across fileds in wich there is no esscape youve been runing for so long your totaly exausted thenyour setapon by a pack of angry dogs you get riped apart and eaten, think of the mental torment that poor fox is going though while its being chaseed just sit there and for a second try and imagin what it would be like


now you still think it shouldnt be baned?


FACT: unless caught by angling, non farmed fish suffer a long slow death either by suffucation in the trawl,gill net or on a long line / deck oh the boat. If they are realy lucky and dont suffocate, they are gutted regardless of whether they are dead or not!
FACT: the majority of foxes that are pursued by the hunt escape, this makes hunting very good at clearing foxes from areas where they are not welcome without killing them. (I'm sure the fox would prefer this to being shot)
FACT: If people took the time to watch a fox hunt from start to finish, they would see that for much of the time the fox isn't even running, frequently stopping and even checking out possible food as it goes along and often displacing weaker animals from earths along the way which are then pursued instead. The closing stages are of course stressfull for the fox but are usually over in seconds.
FACT: the levels of stress hormones found in live trapped foxes (urban)are higher than those found in live foxes cornered by hounds.
FACT: The majority of foxes that are shot are taken by a body shot(easier to secure a kill).This usually eviscerates or partially dismembers the animal (hollow point rifle rounds), this takes seconds to kill the fox,it is not instant.

Anthropomorphising foxes is foolish. Foxes have earths(NOT houses) they are not dug out of earths and THEN pursued. Earths are temporary shelters used py many foxes in an area, except in the breeding season when they are not hunted. When a fox is pursued it has no idea what to expect (it hasnt seen the videos and web sites) this is probably why they keep stopping in the early stages of the hunt.

With fox hunting for population control, the fox has a good chance of escape, hence the expression "bloodSPORT" Every other method gives the fox no chance to use its witts to escape. I'll say it again, if you were a fox, wouldn't you prefer to have warning and a chance?
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Postby noah's_arc » Fri Nov 26, 2004 9:25 am

[quote="Surf Monkey"]

now try thinking of what it would be like to be that fox you have just had your house destroyed and now your being chassed by 100 dogs for hours across fileds in wich there is no esscape youve been runing for so long your totaly exausted thenyour setapon by a pack of angry dogs you get riped apart and eaten, think of the mental torment that poor fox is going though while its being chaseed just sit there and for a second try and imagin what it would be like


now you still think it shouldnt be baned?[/quote]

Been following the whole topic with interest, and has read all sorts of nonesence from the anti's and lots of well structered arguments by the pro hunting side (ok, only my opinion, and yes I'm pro-hunting). But I just had to respond to the above...

Chased by 100 dogs for hours across fields with no escape??? Are these super-hero dogs then? Unlimited stamina? And of course the fox gets exhausted long before the dogs doesn't it? Because foxes ("real" ones, not the mangey city things you see) are so unfit they can't manage more than a stroll down to their nearest rubbish bin for a snack... The dogs on the other hand are perfectly honed, muscular running machines... And there's no escape because the "hunters" set up a huge ring fence around that pretty little place called "The Countryside" so fantastic Mr Fox can't escape...

What total, uneducated nonesence. If you're going to have such strong opinions at least base them on reality and you might gain some respect in this argument.

Oh, and Crispy - I take it you're a vegetarian?
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Postby frameline » Fri Nov 26, 2004 9:34 am

noah's_arc wrote:
Oh, and Crispy - I take it you're a vegetarian?


Hmm interesting topic, BUT I think we need to stop using the 'vegetarian clause', I think it is crazy to keep on saying that you cannot be anti hunt without being a vegetarian. There is a huge divide for killing for sport and for food....There have been some interesting and strong points raised by the pro-hunts, I still sit strongly on the antifence, but to resort back to 'well you eat meat so how can you care' is just a bit childish....
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Postby noah's_arc » Fri Nov 26, 2004 9:56 am

[quote="CRISPY"][quote]


Basically, I find cruelty to ANY animals unacceptable. Not fox hunting alone. Just a couple of weeks backmy girlfriend and I spent the best part of an afternoon trying to catch a mouse under the floor boards. We evntually caught it and set it free. Much to the Displeasure of the Cats. The bottom line for me is. I do what I can in life to prevent unnecessary harm to the animals we live with. If an Animal HAS to be killed then it should be done in a way the causes the least amount of pain and suffering. Being disemboweled and left to bleed to death in the name of “sportâ€
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Postby Bigjohn » Fri Nov 26, 2004 9:59 am

Frameline you have a point and I hope that it is an argument that I havent used I have huge respect for vegans.
I think that we all have a degree of hypocricy. To use animal products or approve of vermin control or enjoy bloodsports means that we accept that some degree of animal suffering is acceptable. It is the acceptable level of suffering that is debatable as well as the perception of suffering. For instance I know that a shot pheasant has a better life and death than even a free range chicken but I still eat KFC. I know that my cat(ex) hunts and kills many of the song birds in my neighbourhood but I still let it out to play.
I accept that higher mammals enjoy hunting prey and do it instinctively and have a right to do so even though the prey suffers. I am a higher mammal with an instinctive desire to hunt but my peers seek to deny me the rights that they grant to animals.
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Postby Bigjohn » Fri Nov 26, 2004 10:08 am

Killing for sport is NOT killing without a reason. It is far from that. Prey are either food or vermin, that is why they are hunted.
The true sportsman enjoys the hunt (which culminates in a kill). He strives for a quick kill. He respects his quarry and delights in the challenge it offers.
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Postby Surf Monkey » Fri Nov 26, 2004 10:40 am

Chased by 100 dogs for hours across fields with no escape??? Are these super-hero dogs then? Unlimited stamina? And of course the fox gets exhausted long before the dogs doesn't it? Because foxes ("real" ones, not the mangey city things you see) are so unfit they can't manage more than a stroll down to their nearest rubbish bin for a snack... The dogs on the other hand are perfectly honed, muscular running machines... And there's no escape because the "hunters" set up a huge ring fence around that pretty little place called "The Countryside" so fantastic Mr Fox can't escape...

What total, uneducated nonesence. If you're going to have such strong opinions at least base them on reality and you might gain some respect in this argument.


yeah right uneducated ive not lived in a village were ive had to put up with hunting for years of not had to stand and watch becuse i cant get out of the villege becuse all those fat pricks in there landrovers have blocked the road so they can all watch while some poor fox is set apon by a bunch of dogs

ive witnessed it first hand so dont sit there and say my views are uneducated
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Postby frameline » Fri Nov 26, 2004 10:43 am

Bigjohn wrote:I think that we all have a degree of hypocricy. To use animal products or approve of vermin control or enjoy bloodsports means that we accept that some degree of animal suffering is acceptable. It is the acceptable level of suffering that is debatable as well as the perception of suffering. For instance I know that a shot pheasant has a better life and death than even a free range chicken but I still eat KFC. I accept that higher mammals enjoy hunting prey and do it instinctively and have a right to do so even though the prey suffers. I am a higher mammal with an instinctive desire to hunt but my peers seek to deny me the rights that they grant to animals.


I guess is all a matter of levels, and pretty much all of do indeed suffer a degree of hypocricy. I try and buy food that is free range, and never eat battery eggs, etc. With regards to hunting and the comments you made John, you hit the nail on the head there and all your comments were true. I have nothing against hunting for food, I have enjoyed spearfishing etc, regulaurly dive for lobster and crab, and believe that if you are a meat eater then true hunting is the most effective way of effiecient eating. Selecting your prey and catching it, taking no more than you need, no bycatch, but I am always sad when I kill something to eat and do all I can to minimize the stress suffered by the animal (I don't boil crabs and lobsters). But I do believe that if you want to hunt, it should be done in the most discrete and humane way possible, you are in effect setting out to kill something. Hence my problem with Fox hunting, an organised event, in your face and extravagant. I just find it a vulgar and disrespectful,.
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Postby frameline » Fri Nov 26, 2004 10:45 am

Bigjohn wrote:He strives for a quick kill. He respects his quarry and delights in the challenge it offers.


In all you have said John, would you classify a fox hunter as a 'true hunter'?
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Postby Surf Monkey » Fri Nov 26, 2004 11:38 am

noah's_arc your names a bit ironic realy aint it noahs arc was bulit to save the lives of animals yet here you are supporting the killing of them
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Postby village-idiot » Fri Nov 26, 2004 11:39 am

Hunting is the most effective form of pest control? - get real - that'd have to be the most inefficient use of resources ever.

For food? I Hardly think 1 mangy fox would feed a hunt if it even gets eaten at all...

The only valid pro hunt argument I can see is that it doesn't do anyone any harm so they should be allowed to continue.

Many people on the other hand disagree, claiming that it is animal cruelty.

I don't have a strong opinion either way TBH.

The thing that matters is that the government, that we elected, explicitly stated in its election manifesto that it believed hunting with dogs was cruel and that it would ban it if elected.

So just be glad it wasn't surfing :)
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Postby Bigjohn » Fri Nov 26, 2004 1:09 pm

frameline wrote:
Bigjohn wrote:He strives for a quick kill. He respects his quarry and delights in the challenge it offers.


In all you have said John, would you classify a fox hunter as a 'true hunter'?

I suspect there is a sting in the tail of your question, but I would say that true fox hunters take no pleasure in a protracted death of the fox once it has been caught by the hounds .

And yes they are hunters, please understand that many people "go along for the ride"(this is where the expression is thought to come from)
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Postby frameline » Fri Nov 26, 2004 2:31 pm

Bigjohn wrote:I suspect there is a sting in the tail of your question, but I would say that true fox hunters take no pleasure in a protracted death of the fox once it has been caught by the hounds . And yes they are hunters, please understand that many people "go along for the ride"(this is where the expression is thought to come from)


No sting big man, just trying to see both sides of the argument. I am trying to empathise with the pro side, I am sure it must be a whole lot of fun for the followers who chase the fox, if you are a horsey kind of person I am sure it is great to be charging around with a number of other like minded people, same as surfing I guess, people must think we are also mad. And I do understand the history that surrounds hunting, but i guess the the changing social climate and the increasing protecton of animals has slowly made a lot of gun sports and hunting less socially acceptable. I do feel sorry for those that will lose income from the banning of hunting. The only thing I don't understand is the complete disregard for finding a comprimise, all that you have said, all the joy of the hunt, the chase, can all be achived through drag hunting, and I am sure in this modern age a way can be found to simulate a fox run. If there is indeed no joy in the kill then why cannot a more universally acceptable method be developed. Leave the killing of pests to trained professionals (which drama aside, can quite easily keep fox populations down) who will present a less in your face approach, and carry on enjoying the hunt in a non lethal manner. I empathise with the hunters in that they are being told they cannot continue something that have loved, but nobody is saying they cannot continue to hunt, just not kill a fox. :!: . It just seems a bit bloody minded to me - if you excuse the pun, any input why this could not be the case, as I know nothing about drag hunting...

i know it is a shame when traditions die, but we are in an evolving society, I would rather be doing 99% of something I love (for example hunting without the final minutes), rather than 0%. It is perhaps time for the hunters to realise that not everybody approves of what they do, and there is an opportunity to present a new public face of hunting, devloping benign hunts that do not result in a kill....
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Postby Bigjohn » Fri Nov 26, 2004 3:16 pm

I dont ride but I am told that drag hunting is seen as a poor substitute because they nearly always catch the "fox"!!! But I think that it will have to do. I'm sure that the days of hunting are over and after a period of protest action it will all go quiet.It will be very interesting to see how it develops. sadly, it will be the "little people" who will suffer.
An old shooting safety rhyme says "All the pheasants ever bred will not make up for one man dead" which is ironic because I guarantee that there will be suicides resulting from this ban
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Postby thedeadly » Fri Nov 26, 2004 5:42 pm

I'm sure that the days of hunting are over and after a period of protest action it will all go quiet.It will be very interesting to see how it develops.


i think it will end up with gangs of "outlaw" fox hunters bombing around on their horses in their "pinks" (thank you BJ) with greasy denim cut-off jackets hiding aroung the undergrowth and upsetting people in country pubs - "Hells Fox Hunters"
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Postby exup » Fri Nov 26, 2004 6:00 pm

misguided in my opinion - we as humans have blunt and sharp teeth and the sharp ones are not for ripping off lumps of cabbage stalk


Im not suggesting that they are, im not the preaching kind of veggie, which was why i said killing for food has logic and purpose behind it. i couldn't care if other poeple eat meat, i just choose not to, which is a shame because i love the taste of it!!!.... i just feel that that if i havent the guts to kill it, it doesn't give me the right to eat it.

Oh, and Crispy - I take it you're a vegetarian?


I can tell you that crispy is not a veggetarian but still has values about cruelty which is what counts.

I guarantee that there will be suicides resulting from this ban


interesting, why do you think this will be the case?
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Postby CRISPY » Fri Nov 26, 2004 9:33 pm

Sorry Crispy, above are all assumptions on my part and interested to know if you are vegetarian or not.


No worries noah. Yes I eat meat. Couple of times a week. I always pay extra for free farmed foods and if we didn't live in the commercialized world we do then I would go out and hunt for food.....................not for fun.


That's the clincher for me.

No more from me on this one.

Peace my fellow surfing dudes :)



http://www.animalconcerns.org/external.html?www=http%3A//www.sundaymirror.co.uk/news/tm_objectid%3D14713774%26method%3Dfull%26siteid%3D106694%26headline%3Dbloody-liars-name_page.html&itemid=200410030847440.284165
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CRISPY
 
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