FRACKING in UK

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FRACKING in UK

Postby defever » Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:08 pm

Hello everyone,

Anyone familiar with hydraulic fracturing (commonly known as "fracking") situation in the UK? http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20707574

I saw a documentary film "Gasland" last year at uni (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZe1AeH0Qz8)...
I didn't know that it's already happening in the UK.

Is there any direct/indirect impact on our open water? Should wave-riders be warned about this?
Sounds quite scary. I'm curious about this and I wonder how it's going to affect the people in the UK...

It would be nice to get some sort of discussion going on here so that people are aware of what this is all about.

Thanks,

E
Last edited by defever on Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: FRACKING in UK

Postby bakers » Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:20 pm

that trailer looks quite biased, it still is worrying though.
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Re: FRACKING in UK

Postby roberdy » Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:17 pm

not quite generally related to surfing, moving to non-surf related.
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Re: FRACKING in UK

Postby waxer00 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:19 pm

sounds like another environmental balls up in the making. :-(
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Re: FRACKING in UK

Postby roberdy » Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:25 pm

fracking is a nasty business though, lots of really bad chemicals getting pumped into the ground, however, this process/approach is unlocking potentially hundreds of millions of barrels of oil equivalent and some companies see it as cheaper then developing alternate fuel sources. It is going to be hard to prevent it's widespread use as soverign nations seek fuel self sufficiency.

Some good material over here on US gas activity, doesn't show what is being fracked or just plain drilled though --> http://www.eia.gov/pub/oil_gas/natural_gas/analysis_publications/maps/maps.htm#shaleplay
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Re: FRACKING in UK

Postby defever » Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:04 pm

Apologies Roberdy...I'll be careful next time. But thanks for moving the thread to the right place.
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Re: FRACKING in UK

Postby roberdy » Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:03 pm

defever wrote:Apologies Roberdy....


No need for apologies mate, ocd is an essential trait for a forum janitor...
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Re: FRACKING in UK

Postby bakers » Thu Dec 13, 2012 10:29 pm

working in heavy industry i always thought the uk government were quite good at controling polution, chemicals etc as they monitor everything very closely with us.
but after watching that film its obvius that the whole process is toxic and it cannot be controlled atall
i typed in "south wales fraking for shale gas" and the top result was this - http://www.walesonline.co.uk/news/wales ... -32419963/
theyve been given the green light! coming to a village neer you, first in line for the chop is Maesteg, then the rest of Glamorgan. Were pretty much fucked?
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Re: FRACKING in UK

Postby WP101 » Thu Dec 13, 2012 11:38 pm

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Re: FRACKING in UK

Postby waxer00 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:49 am

what a useless bunch of apes we are.this idea has stoopid written all over it.pumping aweful chemicals into the earth whilst releasing radioactive materials at the same time.`way to go` hard hat apes!
desperate times calls for desperate measures
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Re: FRACKING in UK

Postby roberdy » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:17 am



Not balance, gas industry sponsored propaganda focussed on mystifying the facts about natural gas getting into the water table as highlighted by the Gaslands film. Of course there has always been natural gas in the water table but not in the quantities that fracking can introduce, if you release millions of tonnes of natural gas from the formations it is held in, and those formations also hold water, you also release the water to find it's way into the water table, which water will always do as all water is trying to find the lowest level. Add to that glycol and diesel and anti-sufactants and all the other nasties to the mix and you have a big problem!

That video was probably sponsored by Halliburton...
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Re: FRACKING in UK

Postby WP101 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:55 am

i tend to agree ^^
its like the global warming debate, believe it or not there are still sceptics, like my old man :?
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Re: FRACKING in UK

Postby defever » Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:37 am

I taste a bit of "Kony 2012"-ness in Gasland... "Kony 2012," "House of Numbers," etc. there seem to be a new genre of propaganda-style film documentary (with clips of heavily edited interviews and why are they all from America?)...

An interview clip about fracking: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NW_xJqPjE_I

I get the message that fracking is perhaps not environmentally friendly, but is it as bad as Gasland highlights the situation? There's loads of clips on YouTube going for/against fracking, Gasland, and its director.

Anyone here working for natural energy/gas company? Project managers? Workers on the actual drilling site? People who live near-by?

Does this have any impact on chemical waste going out to the sea?
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Re: FRACKING in UK

Postby Chris F » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:18 pm

As said before, I think it's a serously bad idea, given thatsome parts of the world heavily reliant on ground water could start getting seriously thirsty. Plus it's seen as a higher energy yield per cash spent compared to "alternative" energy sources at the monent, so money is likely to be diverted that way, rather than in alternative energy sources infrastructure, which if spent well on developing the technology could well improve the energy yield of the structures.
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Re: FRACKING in UK

Postby waxer00 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:19 pm

^ you don`t have to be a scientist or generally in the know to realise the folly of these ventures.some ideas are just so blatently and intuitively wrong from their very conception it beggars belief that they ever get off the ground in the first place!
i think if anything ,it shows the governments of the western economies` desperate attempts to solve impending energy and economic meltdown, and general shift of power towards the emerging economies and oil rich nations like china,middle east and now brazil etc..
in my books , more tax payers coffers should be directed towards the green technologies,which will provide safe long term solutions for our energy needs.
solutions that will not cause polution,earthquakes,radioactive waste and huge problems for the generations to come.
i heard a politician say recently `a politicians job is to try to solve the most pressing problems first` this idea is flawed if it causes short term thinking and dick measuring over a more balanced approach which takes in the long term effects of any new policy proposal, be it energy related or otherwise.
so frack off you frackers
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Re: FRACKING in UK

Postby waxer00 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:23 pm

defever wrote:
Anyone here working for natural energy/gas company? Project managers? Workers on the actual drilling site? People who live near-by?

Does this have any impact on chemical waste going out to the sea?

see above ^^
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Re: FRACKING in UK

Postby bakers » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:53 pm

i would assume that the reason that only americans are included in gasland is because the bloke making the film set out on his own with a basic camera. he didnt have a budget to fly all over the world and interview everyone. i think he interviewed a very good cross section of people, from the sticks to the cities. a well made film in my opinion.
fraking is in "the sun" today and its a bit worrying that i told people in work with me about the film and whats gonna be happebing in there backyard, at first they were all worried about the situation but in the sun newspaper they basicaly put the message across that the environmental and human health damage that will be done is a neccessary casualty in the quest for the uk to escape from foriegn oil dependancy, so now nobody seems to care. the media have put the blinkers on the masses. people need to be educated on the extensive damage that will be done but theres no one to do it. the papers have said its ok so it must be ok. these are sad times we are living in.
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Re: FRACKING in UK

Postby Kamikaze » Fri Dec 14, 2012 12:56 pm

Doesn't makes any less sense than floating a humungeous platform out at sea and drilling for oil/gas. They said north sea gas was going to be a disaster back when it was proposed, something about accidentally draining the north sea! (mind you if they could do that, could solve the sea rising due to climate change problem)

No one want anything these days, I say try it and see what happens. The alternative is shipping gas from Russia

Lets face it windfarms are hardly the way forward, every time one gets proposed no one nearby want them. (personally I think they look quite cool) and as for nuclear, well thats been discussed to death here already.

And lets face it, "pumping chemicals into the ground" being bad. They are being pumped a sodding long way down.
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Re: FRACKING in UK

Postby bakers » Fri Dec 14, 2012 1:36 pm

kamikaze -- have you seen the film gasland? i held the same view as you before watching that film. it then lead me to do research of my own. i thought the government wouldnt allow something like this to go on surely? but they are. reports found that at the lanchishire site in 18 months only 2 visits of inspection were made. coming from a dirty industry myself i find this shoking. theres always some kind of inspector lurking around our plant.
it seems just like in the u.s.a the companies in charge of fraking are self regulating. a laughable concept.
as for oil rigs although not ideal they have there foot firmly in the door theres no chance of removing them! something needs to be done to prevent the fraking companies. because like the rig companies, once they start turning a profit theres no chance of getting rid of them, regaurdless of how much damage they are causing.
also as bad as it sounds the oil rigs are a long way from home and dont have a direct heavy impact on peoples health. fraking is gonna be in all our backyards and they will be the direct cause of illness and misery for many.
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Re: FRACKING in UK

Postby ATTMFKH » Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:28 pm

We are doing research into Produced Water associated with fracking for HMG.

HMG going to set up a new org , probably similar to the Office of CCS under DECC, to legislate / consent / licence the shale gas exploration companies / sites.

@ BAkers - fracking will not be in all our backyards - there are limited geological sites in the UK to support development, Poland has huge areas as does West Ireland. UK estimates currently around 20 years of shale gas production - no wonder HMG sitting up and listening - more money to treasury, reduced CO2 emissions from Power Industry when they build the gas fleet as opposed to coal, help meet Kyoto climate change targets.

Too bad if you live local though eh !


& the Green argument - fine and good if you want the lights out in the next 5 years - no horror stories , Dec 2011 the UK was close : check the current input by fuel type onto the grid, updated every 1/2 hour ........ http://www.bmreports.com/bsp/bsp_home.htm scroll down to Geneneration By Fuel Type ........ e.g. Wind onto Grid in last 1/2 hr = 7.6% & it's blowing a hoolie.

Scotland - little Alex's committment to 100% Renewables by 2020 is utter bollocks - unfortunately , the more I look at it , the more nuclear fusion would appear to be the answer, if we could deal with the waste properly
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Re: FRACKING in UK

Postby WP101 » Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:31 pm

ATTMFKH wrote:We are doing research into Produced Water associated with fracking for HMG.

HMG going to set up a new org , probably similar to the Office of CCS under DECC, to legislate / consent / licence the shale gas exploration companies / sites.

@ BAkers - fracking will not be in all our backyards - there are limited geological sites in the UK to support development, Poland has huge areas as does West Ireland. UK estimates currently around 20 years of shale gas production - no wonder HMG sitting up and listening - more money to treasury, reduced CO2 emissions from Power Industry when they build the gas fleet as opposed to coal, help meet Kyoto climate change targets.

Too bad if you live local though eh !


& the Green argument - fine and good if you want the lights out in the next 5 years - no horror stories , Dec 2011 the UK was close : check the current input by fuel type onto the grid, updated every 1/2 hour ........ http://www.bmreports.com/bsp/bsp_home.htm scroll down to Geneneration By Fuel Type ........ e.g. Wind onto Grid in last 1/2 hr = 7.6% & it's blowing a hoolie.

Scotland - little Alex's committment to 100% Renewables by 2020 is utter bollocks - unfortunately , the more I look at it , the more nuclear fusion would appear to be the answer, if we could deal with the waste properly



good link and yes^^

unfortunately tidal and wave aint gonna happen on a significant scale either, desperate times call for desperate measures :(
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Re: FRACKING in UK

Postby ATTMFKH » Fri Dec 14, 2012 4:06 pm

Usual Ref doc for all the Frack Heads from the Royal Academy of Engineering, covers all topics discussed here - produced waters, chemicals, solids, treatment, seismic triggers etc...

http://royalsociety.org/uploadedFiles/R ... le-gas.pdf
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Re: FRACKING in UK

Postby bakers » Fri Dec 14, 2012 5:00 pm

How can something like fracking be regulated? its to much of a chaotic process.
If just a small percentage of humans health is going to be seriously affected surely it cannot be allowed or is a blind eye going to be turned to the unfortunate few so the masses can be appeased and we can brake free of our dependency on foriegn oil.
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Re: FRACKING in UK

Postby Kamikaze » Sat Dec 15, 2012 10:36 am

bakers wrote:also as bad as it sounds the oil rigs are a long way from home and dont have a direct heavy impact on peoples health. fraking is gonna be in all our backyards and they will be the direct cause of illness and misery for many.



Tell that to the areas surrounding the north sea if there's ever a disaster.


If oil rigs didn't exist now and someone suggested them, they'd probably get a worse reception than fracking is. and imagine if someone wanted to construct (if that's the right word) a coal mine!

Don't get me wrong, I am sure there are risks, but those risks need to be managed and controlled in the same way as oil/coal/nuclear are, may not be perfect but the other option is paying the Russians/Arabs or going cold.

And I think the Isle of Wight fiasco proves just how likely wind farms are to succeed.
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Re: FRACKING in UK

Postby waxer00 » Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:42 pm

there `s not just wind kami,there is solar panel ,heat source pump (air and ground),wood burning,solar window,solar tiles and new nanotechnologies coming through.
solar pv panels on yur roof alone can supply a household with 3/4 of yur yearly energy needs.use this in conjuntion with other renewable tech and wallaa as the frenchies say!
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Re: FRACKING in UK

Postby Kamikaze » Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:24 pm

Excuse the reediting waxer.

waxer00 wrote:there `s not just wind kami,there is solar panel ,solar window,solar tiles solar pv panels on yur roof alone can supply a household with 3/4 of yur yearly energy needs.use this in conjuntion with other renewable tech and wallaa as the frenchies say!


All take up space, look ugly, are expensive to make and are made of valuable resources, which incidentally involve mining, with quite a few risks involved.

waxer00 wrote: heat source pump (air and ground)


Needs electric to power the pump so you'll still need a power station. Don't get me wrong, an efficient use of electric, but heat pumps are at there best if you can use both the heat produced (to heat) and the cold produced (to cool). most of these systems pull heat out of the ground/air, but in so doing are chucking away kw of wasted energy. The good ones also use refrigerants (and where do you think they get those from).

waxer00 wrote: wood burning,


Basically here you are chucking carbon straight up the chimney and into the atmosphere. They smell (ask the neighbour of someone with a wood burner) take looking after, and if you don't replant after cutting sown the wood, you might as well have burnt coal. There is also a limited amount of wood, we cut most of ours down for the industrial revolution (then tell the brazillians they've got to keep theirs)

waxer00 wrote: and new nanotechnologies coming through.


Go ask prince charles about grey goo!


Again don't get me wrong, all sources of fuel should be investigated and used to their full potential, they should be made as safe and environmentally freindly as possible, but don't mistake renewables for some nirvana of fuel production there is a minus to every side. The greens are quick enough to point these out with fossils/nuclear but they don't seem so keen on pointing out the flaws in the alternatives.

Also don't get me wrong I'm not against renewables, I like watching windmills, heat pumps are a great idea in their place, and nano tech is the stuff of my scifi dreams, but it all has a downside. Gas is the cleanest of the fossil fuels, it seems plain dumb not to investigate fracking to see if its any use, if it turns out its to dangerous then by all means don't use it, but at least give it a chance, and not just bin it cos the yanks chuffed it up. Lets face it the next alternative is nuclear.
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Re: FRACKING in UK

Postby waxer00 » Sun Dec 16, 2012 12:29 am

Kamikaze wrote: cos the yanks chuffed it up.

some company already chuffed it up in blackpool(earth tremors) which forced the government to stop the project dead in its tracks!
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Re: FRACKING in UK

Postby Black » Sun Dec 16, 2012 10:04 am

Its a case of, wait for the tremors to die down and try again, mad!
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Re: FRACKING in UK

Postby ATTMFKH » Sun Dec 16, 2012 11:11 am

waxer00 wrote:
Kamikaze wrote: cos the yanks chuffed it up.

some company already chuffed it up in blackpool(earth tremors) which forced the government to stop the project dead in its tracks!


Quadrilla

Maybe Doug McClure will show up :lol:
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Re: FRACKING in UK

Postby defever » Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:23 am

Wind farm off the Jurassic coast is in question: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/science-environment-20726813
Also there was an article in the latest SAS's pipeline issue about SAS's victory over wind farm proposal off the coast of Brighton.
The government / companies involved in wind farm seem to make a significant action based on the voices of the campaigners against wind farm...

BUT it doesn't seem to be the same with shale gas and fracking... why is that? Is it because wind farm is not profitable and inefficient way of extracting energy source? Is it because shale gas has alot more profit margin? Is it easier to frack than build wind farms? Is the government backing fracking more than wind farms?

I don't think the issue is about whether shale gas should be used as a fuel to survive, it's the METHOD of how the gas is extracted from underground (ie fracking) that seem to make people campaign against it...
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