Cold Hand Survey

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Cold Hand Survey

Postby Iain » Sat Mar 02, 2013 9:54 am

Dear all

In the this first year that I have launched this Ianovated wetsuit which has a breath powered hand heating system
http://www.ianovated.co.uk/
So far I have just been selling to windsurfers , kite surfers, SUP boarders and dinghy sailors.
I would like to work out how far north I need to go before this system starts to apply to surfers. On the English south coast I am getting mixed responses as to whether gloves on their own are enough. On possible bonus of this system is it would enable you to wear gloves that just have a very thin leather palm rather than think neoprene which frustrates grabbing the edge of the boards.

I would also appreciate comments about how far off the suit design is - its a semi dry flush fit below the chest but baggy across the shoulders and along the arms. In the existing sports that i sell to, initial complaints about the suit being too floaty in waves are soon withdrawn because of the suits other compensating factors.

Your comments would be much appreciated. Feel free to take the mick, I know at first glance the suit looks mad, I now know what catheter is in eight languages! However the suit does solve a big problem for many water sportsmen. You help to assess its possible migration to surfing is appreciated

Thank you
Iain Smith
Ianovated wetsuit inventor - See more at: http://www.surfing-waves.com/forum/view ... WakDv.dpuf
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Re: Cold Hand Survey

Postby Vince Noir » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:00 pm

Haaaaahahahaha are you for real ?

i dont know which south coast surfers you have been asking, but the south coast isnt cold, and the solution is to wear thicker gloves.

sorry, this just looks utterly ridiculous in my opinion. tubes running down my arms and back and a little pipe to breathe into to warm my hands ? no thanks, id rather wear a proven, decent suit, decent gloves,and i still dont have cold hands
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Re: Cold Hand Survey

Postby Philshoz » Mon Mar 04, 2013 3:59 pm

Is that Iain Duncan Smith? Does the boss know what you do in your spare time?

Seriously though, It seems a bit of a faff. I'm with Vincey on this one, just get good gear.

Good luck with it, just don't ask us to fill in any surveys please....... :wink:
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Re: Cold Hand Survey

Postby ATTMFKH » Tue Mar 05, 2013 11:48 am

Philshoz wrote:Is that Iain Duncan Smith? Does the boss know what you do in your spare time?

Seriously though, It seems a bit of a faff. I'm with Vincey on this one, just get good gear.

Good luck with it, just don't ask us to fill in any surveys please....... :wink:


Nah , it the former Rhodesian PM :lol:
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Re: Cold Hand Survey

Postby Poo Stance » Tue Mar 05, 2013 12:16 pm

Scarbs today is apparently 5.3deg while the south coast Chimet buoy is reading 4.9. Make of that what you will.

Good luck with your product. Just because something may look 'ridiculous' doesnt mean it cant be functional and effective. I often blow into my gloves before i put them on if theyre wet and been in the motor overnight. And a solution to wearing thicker gloves would be most welcome. The weight associated with thicker gloves and subsequent harder paddling means i dont wear over 3mm.

Does this system require certain gloves or will it work with all off the shelf products?

Are the gloves sealed to stop water getting in through the neck? Hard to tell from the vid.

I dont think i would pay for a whole suit just for this system, but may consider if i could fit it to my existing suit.

Would i be laying on the tubes when i am prone and paddling? as that could be annoying.
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Re: Cold Hand Survey

Postby ATTMFKH » Tue Mar 05, 2013 1:30 pm

'you will be amazed at how little your hands ask for you to blow on them' ................. my hands don't speak mate , WTF are you on ?

Looks ridiculous, I'm out :-|
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Re: Cold Hand Survey

Postby Iain » Tue Mar 05, 2013 7:40 pm

Hi Mr Poo Stance

Thank you very much for your reply.

Can you give me the website link to buoy data for sea temperatures - a great call.

Gloves - For the heating system to work the gloves need to partially inflate before the breath escapes either through the seams or out around the wrist. The heating system is so successful for kite surfers and sailors that I would expect it to enable surfers to wear gloves with a very thin (possibly leather) under side and thin neoprene back. Would a thin dry glove where all the breath backs out around the wrist seal be the ultimate solution? I do not know and need some one to try it.

Tubes - They entirely run across the back shoulders and down the back of the arms, there will be no conflict with them when lying on the board. However the suit is a baggy fit across the shoulders and down the arms to make the tubes comfortable and heated. Will that make the suit too floaty or will the down side of the extra buoyancy be more than compensated by the comfortable warm hands and being able to use the thinner gloves?

Can I send you a suit to experiment with before it starts to get too warm? I'm not trying to sell it, if this suit works for you I will gladly give it to you for your feed back.

Thank you
Iain
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Re: Cold Hand Survey

Postby defever » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:18 am

Interesting innovation for "wind" watersports but I'm not so convinced it'll be useful for "submerged" watersports.

The difference I see with the watersports people you've approached so far (windsurfers, kiters, sailers, SUPers, paddlers?) compared to surfers (or even body boarders) is that surfers spend considerable amount of time being submerged in water. So they'd want a very good seal to minimise flushing: addition of tubing may allow water to get inside the suit via mouth piece, tube/neoprene interface, or air-let around the wrist?

Another difference is shoulder flexibility. Surfers don't want anything interfering with their paddling. Yes, baggy shoulder/forearm area may overcome that but the down sides to that are flushing during duck dive (if you can overcome the extra buoyancy caused by the air pocket), and possible chaffing from the tube and loose fit suit. Surfers don't wear wetsuit with zips that goes across the back of their shoulders (like the dry suit or steamers) because they don't want any restriction around their shoulders or back.

Also, I may be wrong on this one; I don't think surfers need the dexterity during surfing which requires in "wind" or "paddle" watersports. Windsurfers, kiters, sailers, SUPers, paddlers all need to use their hands to manoeuvre their crafts. Surfers don't need that dexterity, even when they're doing grabs. They don't need the grip strength as required in holding on to the boom, ropes, or paddles. At the speed some sailers hit, windchill might be alot colder than the actual sea water temperature? I don't know.

I think the suit will benefit on watersports which an individual is exposed to the wind alot, requires hand dexterity, and spends less time in water. So I think you have the right market, but not just quite there with surfers.

Just few thoughts I had. I could be wrong, and I'm sure one can argue against my points. I hope this helps...
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Re: Cold Hand Survey

Postby Iain » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:25 pm

Thank you for your comments Defever, I have built them into the pointers to look at during the test that I lined up earlier on this forum. Weather permitting the test is due to take place in Wales this week end.
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Re: Cold Hand Survey

Postby Poo Stance » Wed Mar 06, 2013 12:46 pm

Good points there defever.

I've signed up to be a test pilot and am gonna test the suit over the next few days. Hopefully I can find a thermometer so can get scientriffic on this.

Iain's said it is possible to put the tube through the inside of the suit sleeve into the glove, so the suit can be worn over the gloves like normal to keep a watertight seal. Will have to see how the bagginess effects paddling and duckdiving. And of course the ultimate test; will my hands be warm(er).

Looking forward to this, hopefully I don't drown or catch hypothermia. My normal barometers for a successful surf :D

Now if only I could get my new campervan kitted out for free...
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Re: Cold Hand Survey

Postby Philshoz » Wed Mar 06, 2013 5:02 pm

Poo Stance wrote:
Now if only I could get my new campervan kitted out for free...


Classic.................. :lol: :lol: :lol:
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Re: Cold Hand Survey

Postby Craivold » Fri Mar 08, 2013 11:11 am

Good effort on being a test pilot Poo... Interested to see how this pans out but I'm definitely thinking the baggy back and sleeves would prove an obstacle when paddling/duck-diving. And good shout on the water temp comparison for the South Coast v elsewhere in the UK. No doubt the ambient temperatures are quite different between the North and South of the UK but as the channel coast is so shallow it does get quite a bit colder than you'd think based on geography and obviously it gets warmer in the summer too (shallow water heated and cooled more easily). I've often gone from surfing the South Coast in winter and then had a dip in the SW in the same month and it's felt noticeably warmer, then vice versa in summer.
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Re: Cold Hand Survey

Postby Archy_is_God » Sat Mar 09, 2013 3:31 pm

Iain, you're bonkers :lol:

Good on you for having a crack at this, though and I don't think the principle is as leftfield as it appears at first glance - similar mechanics to warm air circulation in houses, capturing warm air and making use of it.

Maybe as time goes on, you could consider a Camelbak - type mouthpiece that just sits on the suit's shoulder and can be used as and when the wearer wishes. You could also look at using a couple of click - valves on both the suit and the mouthpiece to either expel or retain air from a watertight bladder around the kidneys; the warm air would nice around your kidneys, but if you need it back, just half a litre or so of expelled breath will still have enough oxygen in it to see you out of mischief if you are pinned to the bottom for two waves in a row.

Pretty wacky to think about things like this, but you never know the potential....
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Re: Cold Hand Survey

Postby twinthin » Sun Mar 10, 2013 9:19 pm

If you're just worried about cold hands a surfer doesn't need the mouthpiece and all the tubes running around the wetsuit. You just need one tube going straight into the glove which comes out at the wrist - and stick a valve on it so it doesn't keep filling up with water. A surfer spends 90% of the time sitting waiting for waves so he'd have plenty of time to warm his hands without all of the hassle of the loose wetsuit (which would be an absolute nightmare when paddling out). A windsurfer might need all the extra gubbins but we don't.

Just make some nice gloves that I can blow into at the wrists and don't call them Ianovated because it sounds crap. Could do alright...
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Re: Cold Hand Survey

Postby swiggy » Sun Mar 10, 2013 11:28 pm

twinthin wrote:If you're just worried about cold hands a surfer doesn't need the mouthpiece and all the tubes running around the wetsuit. You just need one tube going straight into the glove which comes out at the wrist - and stick a valve on it so it doesn't keep filling up with water. A surfer spends 90% of the time sitting waiting for waves so he'd have plenty of time to warm his hands without all of the hassle of the loose wetsuit (which would be an absolute nightmare when paddling out). A windsurfer might need all the extra gubbins but we don't.
.


This is a good idea. Get rid of the long tubes etc. A glove you can blow into, keep it simple.
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Re: Cold Hand Survey

Postby Philshoz » Mon Mar 11, 2013 6:42 am

twinthin wrote:If you're just worried about cold hands a surfer doesn't need the mouthpiece and all the tubes running around the wetsuit. You just need one tube going straight into the glove which comes out at the wrist - and stick a valve on it so it doesn't keep filling up with water. A surfer spends 90% of the time sitting waiting for waves so he'd have plenty of time to warm his hands without all of the hassle of the loose wetsuit (which would be an absolute nightmare when paddling out). A windsurfer might need all the extra gubbins but we don't.

Just make some nice gloves that I can blow into at the wrists and don't call them Ianovated because it sounds crap. Could do alright...


Now that IS a good idea. Lateral thinking at it's finest..........I'm in ........................ 8)
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Re: Cold Hand Survey

Postby defever » Mon Mar 11, 2013 2:40 pm

Is this too heavy to slip into your gloves?

Image

It's one of those click heat gel things. Will take up space inside the gloves instead of sea water getting in.
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Re: Cold Hand Survey

Postby Chris F » Mon Mar 11, 2013 3:48 pm

swiggy wrote:
twinthin wrote:If you're just worried about cold hands a surfer doesn't need the mouthpiece and all the tubes running around the wetsuit. You just need one tube going straight into the glove which comes out at the wrist - and stick a valve on it so it doesn't keep filling up with water. A surfer spends 90% of the time sitting waiting for waves so he'd have plenty of time to warm his hands without all of the hassle of the loose wetsuit (which would be an absolute nightmare when paddling out). A windsurfer might need all the extra gubbins but we don't.
.


This is a good idea. Get rid of the long tubes etc. A glove you can blow into, keep it simple.


This has been done before with ski / boarding gloves. A mate had a pair. Good idea in principle, but it only gives temporary warmth as your breath has a high moisture content and as soon as it cools the moisture drops out and you have a puddle of cold water inside the bit you have blown into, so you are worse off than before.
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Re: Cold Hand Survey

Postby swiggy » Mon Mar 11, 2013 9:20 pm

Chris F wrote:
swiggy wrote:
twinthin wrote:If you're just worried about cold hands a surfer doesn't need the mouthpiece and all the tubes running around the wetsuit. You just need one tube going straight into the glove which comes out at the wrist - and stick a valve on it so it doesn't keep filling up with water. A surfer spends 90% of the time sitting waiting for waves so he'd have plenty of time to warm his hands without all of the hassle of the loose wetsuit (which would be an absolute nightmare when paddling out). A windsurfer might need all the extra gubbins but we don't.
.


This is a good idea. Get rid of the long tubes etc. A glove you can blow into, keep it simple.


This has been done before with ski / boarding gloves. A mate had a pair. Good idea in principle, but it only gives temporary warmth as your breath has a high moisture content and as soon as it cools the moisture drops out and you have a puddle of cold water inside the bit you have blown into, so you are worse off than before.


Thats not a problem here though, I could see it working.
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Re: Cold Hand Survey

Postby Chris F » Tue Mar 12, 2013 10:30 am

Not sure I can. You will need a valve to stop water getting in, and if there is a valve it will mean air can't escape. For the warmth in your breath to provide any warmth to your hands it will need to be in close contact with the skin, and you will then have the same problem with moisture in breath dropping out to liquid as soon as the air cools, and then being cold against the hands. Air does not hold temperature for very long, and the positive effect will only be a matter of seconds; your breath is not that much warmer than the air.

I think just having a decent neoprene glove will be just as beneficial, but with less faff.
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Re: Cold Hand Survey

Postby defever » Thu Mar 14, 2013 9:21 pm

Sooo... awaiting Poo reivew.
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Re: Cold Hand Survey

Postby ATTMFKH » Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:46 pm

^^ think it will be a Poo review .................... beginning to think this is an elaborate hoax. The designs are whacko. :roll:

Fit for purpose ????? get to fuck :lol: :lol: :lol:

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Re: Cold Hand Survey

Postby ATTMFKH » Thu Mar 14, 2013 10:51 pm

This would be a more functional design

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Re: Cold Hand Survey

Postby Philshoz » Fri Mar 15, 2013 7:13 am

ATTMFKH wrote:This would be a more functional design

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Where did you get that pic of me? ............Busted.
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Re: Cold Hand Survey

Postby Poo Stance » Sun Mar 17, 2013 2:45 pm

defever wrote:Sooo... awaiting Poo reivew.


Sorry folks. It's coming I promise. Just need to find some time to sit and waffle for a bit.

Suffice to say I didn't drown or freeze to death. Success, for some. :-D
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Re: Cold Hand Survey

Postby Poo Stance » Mon Mar 18, 2013 3:13 pm

OK. Reportage time.

CONDITIONS:
Fri 8th March @ Rest Bay. Tide was pushing but not quite on the rocks yet. Waves were small and weak, waist high, nice on the drop but quickly into mush. Wind was very light offshore. Didn't get a chance to buy a thermometer buy the buoys were showing approx 6degrees.
As it was the first time out in the suit I wasn't looking for epic waves, just something that if the suit failed horribly I could still get back to the beach easy enough. But enough wave to test whether the suit was a hinderance to surfing.
I was in the water for 1.5 hours before the tide crapped out the waves and I couldn't be bothered anymore.

THE SUIT:
The suit has some bagginess around the shoulder blades and upper arms (from just below the elbows).
The neck, ankle and wrist seals are very good.
The knee pads look a bit fragile (could be wrong) and could maybe be a tad higher (for me).
The back zip is a struggle to open and close on your own.


THE TEST:
I decided to wear a 2mm vest underneath just incase I had lots of water ingress into the suit making me cold. Although water definitely got into the suit (vest was wet when I got out) it wasn't noticeable as it was happening.
To be honest, I was f'ing roasting in the suit. Way warmer than my West Lotus and decrepit Xcels. So much so that the cold water on my head was making me feel nauseous as I was paddling out.
Duckdiving didn't seem an issue at first even, with the air cavity in the suit. What I found was that the air was forced through the suit from the torso and out from the leg I stick in the air to counter my weight. Whether the air actually escaped was hard to tell but I could definitely feel the air move along my leg. Maybe it wasn't expelled though, and just reverted back into the torso after completion of the duckdive.
Because of the bagginess of the suit around the torso and the piping from the hand warming system, the suit would kind of bunch up a bit and when paddling you could see both in your peripheral vision. Although I did not find it restricting my paddling.

Onto the hand warming system.
As you can see from the pictures. The piping sits around your neck ready to be lifted into the mouth when required. The piping then enters the suit behind your neck, crosses over and travels down inside the arms of the suit. It then exits the suit just above the wrists. Here it gets fed into the gloves from the outside. As some of you have noted, this means the gloves get pulled over the suit, which is the reverse of the norm in surfing. We normally have the suit pulled over the glove. With this in mind I adjusted the piping so that it no longer exited the suit at the wrists, and just fed them into the glove from inside the sleeves (covering the holes where the piping originally exited to stop water ingress).
Issues I had with the piping were:
Probably because the pipes weren't held taught at the wrists where they exited the suit before going into the gloves, I found that occasionally the pipes would retract back into the arm of the suit. This would effectively stop the air from the piping getting to the gloves. I think I exasperated this though, as before putting the suit on I felt the piping was a bit long and tried to limit the amount of piping feeding into the gloves. However, after a bit of paddling and a few pop-ups I think I should have left them as they were. It wasn't hard to fed the pipes back into the gloves though and if there was something holding them in place on the inside of the wetsuit sleeve then I don't think this would have been an issue (or if I would have left the pipes exiting the suit as designed).
A very small issue was that, because the piping fed into the suit on the top/back of the hand, you could feel it there when raising your hand to perpendicular to your forearm. A very moot point, made less so because the piping itself is quite supple and doesn't have a hard edge.
During the 1st half of the test I was trying to test the system just for functionality; seeing if it was comfortable and if it did indeed actually fill the gloves with air as per the video on the website.
The system worked fine and did inflate the gloves.
However, because the suit was so warm I wasn't actually getting so cold as to be able to test whether the system effectively managed to warm my hands up. So after a while I decided to lay off breathing into the tubes. But even then I wasn't really feeling the cold (maybe a stronger offshore wind would have helped). So in the end I ended up scooping sea water into my gloves to try and cool my hand down. Even then I found my hands stayed warm.
Eventually I did start to feel cold at the tip of the index finger on my right hand. So then I continuously breathed into the piping. I have to say that if the system was warming my hands, it didn't seem to be reaching my finger tip. After discussing this with Iain afterwards he suggests that this is down to the air escaping through into the wetsuit before it gets a chance to reach the finger tips, this being a result of my modification of the piping now running inside the suit all the way into the gloves as opposed to how it was designed. Iain did provide me with straps to help keep the glove seal tight. Unfortunately I didn't use these as I figured with the piping running inside the suit I wouldn't need to keep the gloves sealed using more than the wetsuit. It is quite likely that using these straps the air would not have been so free to leave the glove into the wetsuit and hence would fill the whole glove as opposed to just around the palm area, subsequently warming my finger tip/s. This is something for test 2.
Another point to note is that continuous blowing into the piping did result in more air filling the baggy area around the torso with air. This was a little strange and seemed to unbalance me a bit when laying prone on my board, which could be an issue paddling into waves (unfortunately by then the waves were backing off quite a bit so wave count was pretty none existent by then). The air could mostly be released by just allowing it to escape through the neck seal, although some did remain in the suit. Although not exactly desirable at this point, maybe this could be modified into a good safety feature?
As regards actually being up and riding surfing the suit. Well, I have to say my limited abilities were not unduly effected. I could still paddle into, catch and ride waves as bad as I ever could. The waves being small and slack didn't really give me a chance to work on my aerial repertoire though.

For the future, I'd like to try keeping the wrist seal tighter to see if my fingertips can be reached. Go out in waves with a bit more power and shape to test maneuverability. And test the suit for general warmth sans 2mm vest.

Hope this has satisfied any weeders curiosity. If you guys have any more questions feel free to ask. Unfortunately I'm off to Germany when it looks like the next good run of waves will hit the SW. So may not get to test the suit again until the water is a few degrees warmer. So if any of you fancy giving it a run too and see how it works for you then I'm happy to pass on the suit. If not, I don't mind sending it back to you too Iain.

Hope that was a fair assessment and not too much hyperbole.
:-D

PS. Thank God I ctrl+C that before I submitted and it logged me out and I lost another mammoth post
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Re: Cold Hand Survey

Postby Philshoz » Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:07 pm

Good review Poo.............

A few questions.

How many stars out of five would you give it and would you buy one if they went to market?

Did you get any funny looks or did anyone ask you what it was all about?
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Re: Cold Hand Survey

Postby Poo Stance » Mon Mar 18, 2013 5:21 pm

Cheers Phil.

How many stars? Do I have to answer that?

Comfort 3.5/5
Warmth 5/5

I haven't paid for a new wetsuit in well over 5 years* I think so probably not best to ask me that. But if money was no object and the fit was more like a typical wetsuit then I think I'd buy one for sure.

I told my mates down in Wales what I was getting up to and they were all curious about it. One even came to meet me at the beach to see it, but he buggered off to a better beach once he'd seen it. A few strange looks in the water I guess, people wondering what to make of me whether I was a kook or not. But I seem to get strange looks where ever I go, odd semi-dry suit or not. Mainly I think they think I'm Ishant Sharma though. lol. No one in the water approached me though.



* actually I got a 4/3 for £35 on ebay recently. But at that price it's like a 2nd hand one anyway.
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Re: Cold Hand Survey

Postby defever » Mon Mar 18, 2013 11:34 pm

Thanks POO for the White Paper. Unfortunately, I'm less convinced. I'm sorry.

Is it worth having cross shoulder zip semi-dry suit and air tube to keep my hands warm? It's the baggy-ness of the dry suit I'm not so keen on. Poo said that it doesn't affect paddling, but having a pocket of air swishing around when duck-diving is more of a nuisance than a benefit. What would happen if the tubing is installed on a conventional chest-zip, skin-tight wetsuit? Would the tubing get in the way of snugg fit? chaffing? or will it work surprisingly?

And ultimately, is the suit going to be cheaper than buying a decent surf wetsuit and a pair of gloves?
Until it becomes mass produced and the cost is brought down, I'm inclined to guess that it will be difficult to complete with the already saturated and highly competitive wetsuit market.

My understanding of Poo's review is that the current version of the suit is an effort (shoulder zip)/nuisance (air bubble)/discomfort (too hot), which sadly outweighs its potential benefits and advantages for surfing... It would be interesting for us to see how Iain can tackle these and adapt the suit for surfing!

Just a thought.
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Re: Cold Hand Survey

Postby Poo Stance » Tue Apr 02, 2013 1:05 pm

Hey Defever.

Although you do notice the air bubble it really isn't a hinderance. Just a bit odd. I'd even go so far as to say it could help during a wipeout to get you back to the surface. Although I think that would need to be tested properly before any claims like that were made. As it's air, it just remains there and doesn't really 'swish' around though.

To be honest, the actual zip itself is what caused me the most discomfort (if you could call it that) as, due to the length of it, it does move around in your peripheral vision by your ears when paddling and your back is arched and head up. But it doesn't stop any range of movement which was my primary concern.

Any other questions feel free to ask, might take a while answering them but I will try. Hopefully do more testing on this soon. And as said, if anyone else fancies testing the suit, I'm more than happy to send it to you.

:)
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