longboard- allrounder or noserider

[curry1curry]

Hiya all,

Help needed or longboard needed that will noseride and turn well too???? (needs to noseride forgivingly as I’m new to noseriding but able to ride longboard ok and turn, trim etc)

I have been reading up in this forum on noseriders/longboards and going into surf shops in braunton in order to try and get info to buy the right board (the trouble with boards is that you cant generally try before you buy ) and am still confused!!.

There are forum topics that some say you can get these allrounder longboards and others who say don’t bother- buy 2 boards!

I have a roger cooper 9 2 (not sure of stats as it doesn’t have them on board- hard rails and non noseridery), I think its a ‘commonal garden’ one… I tried a mac tavish 9 1 original and was stunned at how easy to turn it was compared to my board. But I could only get to the label by cross stepping (but this may have been my poor technique).

Have been recommended mactavish fireball which apparently is easier to noseride and turns as well?

Loosefit in Braunton do a Lonsdale 9 2 which is similar to this but a bit cheaper. Of course black and white do a performance noserider… but i cant try this before I buy  .

Any advice or of anyone has one that they want to sell let me know??

Trev 

i guess my main issue here is... i enjoy a longboard that turns well but want to learn to noseride,... but am thinking an allrounder will be too unforgiving to learn to noseride on so it might be better to get an out and out noserider to learn on and buy a performance longboard as well...???

[Jory]

hmm

It is confusing stuff

The bottom line to get your head around is the two "schools" of longboarding, traditional and progressive. A traditional log like the superb ones gulfstream sell will noseride well and also turn well but they turn in a "pivoty " way and dont generate speed or drive with turns, instead you get trim speed by moving up the board after the turn so footwork is very important. With good footwork they will turn very well but in a very specific sense.
When people say they noseride well they mean in the sense that they will be very stable to get your feet close together on a five or to hang ten and will hold in right in the steepest bit of the wave. they are not the easiest boards to manouver because of their weight but are easy enough to surf if you have a bit of cross stepping going on. I always think that the quality of a noseride is more about the position if your back foot, surfers on less traditional equipment tend to leave their backfoot much further away from the nose.

"performance" longboards like the "original" and performance noseriders (like the fireball) are very similar shapes, just with different amounts of foam in them. Generally the more performance you go, the more shortboard like your turns will be at the expense of pure trim speed without pumping and at the expense of noseriding on a small slow wave as you experienced. Both types have narrower tails and hard rails so actually produce speed or drive through your turn (in basic turns) they noseride in a different, flatter part of the wave BUT something with a wide nose like the fireball will still noseride well just in a slightly different way than a proper log. they draw different lines on the wave.

If you ever see vowlesy out at saunton on his fireball you will see fine evidence of the fireballs noseriding even in small waves.

Here's the controversial bit.......... i'm going to say that things like the fireball are actually a bit easier to learn to noseride on (as long as you dont get one too small) because, they are lighter and easier to turn and they are in a way easier and less critical as far as your positioning goes to get on the nose because of all the nose width. They turn from further up the board so your positioning and footwork is a bit less critical.

controversial i know coming from a logging fiend such as myself but.... i think in a way your decision comes down to what you want your longboarding style to look like, what you mean by "turning well"

hopefully that hasn't confused you more. Loose fit did have a couple of tester boards around.

All that said i have a bing that might be for sale which is a log that turns very well in a traditional sense and noserides ok too.......

[North Devon Lad]

Very quick response from me.

If I could choose one board for noseriding and turns, it would be Takayama "In the pink".

I've just had a board made up for me by Black and White, using the "in the pink" as a basis, plus a few tweeks that i wanted. Noserides and turns great, best board i've ever had.

[royal]

19.9" nose, 14.35 tail

not trying to be a dick, just never got super these oblong boards...

[Jory]

Yeah I personally find the nose too wide& fat railed on the in the pink but lots of people love it. Different noseriding philosophies as mentioned above.

Also I can change direction on my single fin just as abruptly as ndl on his new board but we are doing different types of turns so depends how u define turns well as previously mentioned

[Barneyrubble]

hmm

It is confusing stuff

The bottom line to get your head around is the two "schools" of longboarding, traditional and progressive. A traditional log like the superb ones gulfstream sell will noseride well and also turn well but they turn in a "pivoty " way and dont generate speed or drive with turns, instead you get trim speed by moving up the board after the turn so footwork is very important. With good footwork they will turn very well but in a very specific sense.
When people say they noseride well they mean in the sense that they will be very stable to get your feet close together on a five or to hang ten and will hold in right in the steepest bit of the wave. they are not the easiest boards to manouver because of their weight but are easy enough to surf if you have a bit of cross stepping going on. I always think that the quality of a noseride is more about the position if your back foot, surfers on less traditional equipment tend to leave their backfoot much further away from the nose.

"performance" longboards like the "original" and performance noseriders (like the fireball) are very similar shapes, just with different amounts of foam in them. Generally the more performance you go, the more shortboard like your turns will be at the expense of pure trim speed without pumping and at the expense of noseriding on a small slow wave as you experienced. Both types have narrower tails and hard rails so actually produce speed or drive through your turn (in basic turns) they noseride in a different, flatter part of the wave BUT something with a wide nose like the fireball will still noseride well just in a slightly different way than a proper log. they draw different lines on the wave.

If you ever see vowlesy out at saunton on his fireball you will see fine evidence of the fireballs noseriding even in small waves.

Here's the controversial bit.......... i'm going to say that things like the fireball are actually a bit easier to learn to noseride on (as long as you dont get one too small) because, they are lighter and easier to turn and they are in a way easier and less critical as far as your positioning goes to get on the nose because of all the nose width. They turn from further up the board so your positioning and footwork is a bit less critical.

controversial i know coming from a logging fiend such as myself but.... i think in a way your decision comes down to what you want your longboarding style to look like, what you mean by "turning well"

hopefully that hasn't confused you more. Loose fit did have a couple of tester boards around.

All that said i have a bing that might be for sale which is a log that turns very well in a traditional sense and noserides ok too.......

Good post Jory - that one should be a sticky as this question comes up loads over time.

[Ferral]

I've recently got hold of a 'Classic Malibu' brand 'California Classic' singlefin. Style wise It's definately in the trad log / noserider camp. However the combo of up rails in the tail, a lot of tail kick and vee means I actually find it easier to turn than the old longboard i was using which was a generic 2+1 all-round longboard by a well known cornish board maker. To qualify turns i mean cutbacks, left-go-rights, and general re-positioning on the wave not re-entries etc.

[royal]

I want to apologize if my post seemed arrogant, or superior complexityied.... Its just that in my own personal experience, I never understood boards with super wide noses. I know loads of people like that, and I guess that is fine since you should ride what you like. It keeps things interesting in the water, and design forum topics lively

Its just that unbalanced outline always looked wonky to me. I end up catching rails all the time, and pearling for no reason. All that weight up front, and no planing area or outline curve in the tail... totally contrary to design theory, and of course the real "hot dog" concepts from malibu, or australia where the wide point was set back(just like modern shortboards.) Anything over 17" in the nose just looks weird to me. But that's just me, and I know I am in the minority...

I'm admittedly a bit of a dick though when people ask me for a board that will help them nose ride - which isn't on the shoulder... Noseriding isn't meant to be easy. That's why we like it, and keep trying to perfect it. Its a challenge, and people that master it look good doing it because they understand proper positioning. Funny thing is, I find a less extreme outline will get you noseriding quicker, in the right position, is more forgiving, and won't spin out like some tear drop outlines will.

It sounds like I'm some Dora-esque, holier than thou type hipster logger, but it is coming from a happy place, really...

[curry1curry]

WOW!!!
i didnt expect such advice?? huge thnx everyone for this

i have to work now but will look thro these posts properly and comment 9probably with more questions ) latr... jory your bing thats for sale 9maybe) i could be intyerested... i live in braunton thereofre could i try it b4 buy/

i did go into loosefit and they didnt say about any demo boardsa but i was interested in the lonsdale so might pop in again and ask about demo?? will try out the mactavish fireball demo at tiki also.

north devon lad- balck and white one sounds interesting !!?? i did ring them a few weeks ago and they said (paul i think it was) that they could design an allrounder for me on my wieght and hieght ( 5 ft 6 and 11 1/2 stone)so i was interested in that and what i was able to do on the mactavish original was so much easier (ie- i was able to turn much easier).

hope this all makes sense....?? ive rushed writing it and am now late for an appot


will post later when ive read better the posts

huge thnx again!!!!!

trev

by turns i mean being able to cut back and top bottom turns (snaking) etc... im still progressing so able to do these but need to get better at it and what

[North Devon Lad]

You've got to decide what type of longboarding you're into.
Personally, I like to be able to take my mals out in a range of surf, i love noseriding, but love to be able to put in a round house or whack a section if the wave dictates.
Jory is a great surfer, but approaches longboarding in a different manner. His footwork and trad style is great, but i'm sure he wont mind me saying you wont find him on a mal in head and half surf, putting in a big carving cut back.

You're welcome to have a few waves on mine if you see me in the water, just give us a shout.


Hear what you're saying Royal. After surfing heaps of different mals if I was after one board for most conditions in UK, it would have a wider nose. Seems to help loads at Saunton, trimming through weaker sections.

[Barneyrubble]

I want to apologize if my post seemed arrogant, or superior complexityied.... Its just that in my own personal experience, I never understood boards with super wide noses. I know loads of people like that, and I guess that is fine since you should ride what you like. It keeps things interesting in the water, and design forum topics lively

Its just that unbalanced outline always looked wonky to me. I end up catching rails all the time, and pearling for no reason. All that weight up front, and no planing area or outline curve in the tail... totally contrary to design theory, and of course the real "hot dog" concepts from malibu, or australia where the wide point was set back(just like modern shortboards.) Anything over 17" in the nose just looks weird to me. But that's just me, and I know I am in the minority...

I'm admittedly a bit of a dick though when people ask me for a board that will help them nose ride - which isn't on the shoulder... Noseriding isn't meant to be easy. That's why we like it, and keep trying to perfect it. Its a challenge, and people that master it look good doing it because they understand proper positioning. Funny thing is, I find a less extreme outline will get you noseriding quicker, in the right position, is more forgiving, and won't spin out like some tear drop outlines will.

It sounds like I'm some Dora-esque, holier than thou type hipster logger, but it is coming from a happy place, really...

Rob - is this you more or less saying that in your opinion you reckon the PIG outline works better?

CurryCurry - I have a longboard (performance noserider) from Black and White and reckon it is a really nice board that is light and manouverable - a good allrounder really but if you want to do the noseriding then it does that too...I can't!

I reckon through time you tend to find out what sort of boards you like and what works for you best and what you don't need. I reckon I'm coming down on the side of Rob in having a narrower nose on a longboard, but that's because I personally ain't too fussed about nosetime...just like the cruisy longboard style. I'd also go single fin now rather than 2 +1.

[royal]

i'm laughing as I write this, but just like the short board crew, there are no right or wrong answers, and there are inevitably at least two camps. I am clearly of the traditional school, but I also like to turn. I don't like one trick ponies, and as Tudor put it, strive to turn like Nat, and perch like David....so yeah, I find a central, or rear widepoint the way forward, lol. It allows me to ride a heavy log, yet crank a turn as need be. But rocker and all that has to be dialed to the planshape as well, plus rails and bottom contours. I don't run to my log when it is chest high or bigger, but have been stupid enough to paddle out when it was head+ and it all still works, but its the paddle out that I hate. No leash, and rocky beaches usually stops me from doing it often though anyway...

anywhoo....top/bottom turns and carving sounds like you're definitely in the new school mindset, so NDL is right to suggest a board similar, and Paul makes some really nice progressive stuff. Clearly NDL rips on his, so the proof is in the pudding. Horses for courses as they say...

sorry for being a grumpy old "longboarder"

[curry1curry]

thnx royal...yes i guess more progressive style is what im after- as i enjoy (but im not great at yet) turning the board and dont just want to noseride. obviously if youre as good as jory is then its possible to trun a log well on the tail, but im not sure i would be able to do this yet so a log for me might be a bit frustrating untill i improve enough to be able to position myself on the board good enough to do it. i think once i learn to turn from the back better i would be interested in exploring the classic log but one off the mactavish experience that i had i really enjoyed the way you could throw it around

royal...just checkingwhat do you mean by central or rear widepoint?


Jory- thnx, very well written and clear help, huge thnx!! it really makes sense... your post rerally helped me get it right in my head a bit more what the different boards do
i def would be interested in looking at the bing if it might do both for me but probs would be over my budget. would like to try it though.

i get the thought of wide nose... no fun because it causes trouble too.. hmmm so many opinions that appear of value?????

barney rubble- cheers for the post too. maybe you cant do the noseriding because it is very hard to do on this board which then wouldnt suit me as a "learner noserider"?? what dyou think?

i am leaning towards the black and white performance noserider now though especially as paul could make it to my specs and from my current experience that i have had from the 2 boards i have ridden (ie- as jory said, the style of the mactavish fireball might work well for me. JORY- i assume you are talking about the fireball thats galssed NOt the surftech one thats light?

[curry1curry]

Yeah I personally find the nose too wide& fat railed on the in the pink but lots of people love it. Different noseriding philosophies as mentioned above.

Also I can change direction on my single fin just as abruptly as ndl on his new board but we are doing different types of turns so depends how u define turns well as previously mentioned

i think that thats the kind of traditional turning that you need to be very skilled in doing which would definatly surpass me

[skimmer2]

[quote="curry1curry"]
barney rubble- cheers for the post too. maybe you cant do the noseriding because it is very hard to do on this board which then wouldnt suit me as a "learner noserider"?? what dyou think? quote]

Nope - not the board at all - it is absolutely the surfer 100 per cent

Seriously, I had the perf noserider recommended to me by NDL who used to ride the same board and that bugger perches on the end with ease. So, basically it's that I don't have the skill and to be honest never tried and not too bothered at the moment...way more to learn before I try all that lark. The board is stable (mine is a 23 wide), paddles fast and turns easy and glides nicely...all of which I wanted and got. Never tried a McTavish Fireball but I reckon they will be a tad more progressive but a very good allrounder....but plenty more expensive. Hey, what do I know, I buy boards as I like new shiny toys then never really know what to do with them....but I'm getting better...slowly.

[royal]

royal...just checkingwhat do you mean by central or rear widepoint?

this is an extreme widepoint back outline:


it looks weird at first because we're so used to the teardrop style longboard, or parallel railed ones. But, this design was apparently created by Velzy - possibly someone else 1st but he made it work - to allow a more radical approach to riding waves, especially beachbreaks where quick direction changes were needed. Some stories have it that is glasser put the fin on the wrong end and they just went with it...lol. It was later adopted by the Australians, and hence we got Nat's Magic Sam, and all the shortboard revolution designs to follow.

If you look at modern shortboards, they basically take this outline, and some even use the rocker theory - late flip in the tail anyone?. Widepoint rear under the rider, where the curve, rocker kick, and planing area allow speed and maneuverability. Simple really, and i'm surprised more people don't do this.

[skimmer2]

If you look at a longer McCoy Nugget you'll see that they look very much like the wrong way round....works great.

[curry1curry]

how wierd!! cant get my head around this design and how it can work... surely the nose will not allow a ride or is it all about the rails and rocker/
skimmer thanx for heads up re black and white... making me feel more confident with this possibilty.
anyway ill watch out for you guys in the water (not sure how im going to do that though and thnx again for such good advice and help

[navier-stokes]

to see this in action watch some of the newer log riding films like 'you scratched my anchor'. I actually got a piggish board off of AB3 a few years ago and i love it. It is not as easy to learn to nose ride on, but my no style cheater 5's feel soooooo good when i pull them off since you are sitting in the pocket of the wave. I really wish that i had pushed some of the classic pig design aspects more, but i love my board and till i can afford to get another one it will have to do.

I also went of the 17.5" nose since i do not like the Popsicle blunt longboard shape. I like the more refined look of narrower nosed rides and wide hips....

[royal]

these boards noseride unreal - once you learn proper positioning. If you think about it, you've got all that ass back in the pocket, buried in the wave to hold the nose up. On the teardrop shape, you are relying on the planing area of the nose to do the same thing.

pigs are the 1st pocket rockets, and love a sucky wave. I keep the nose under 17" usually, and 15 3/4" on some, with full rolled bottom all the way and no concave, and they go really well. But, as has been said, it depends on how you're going to ride it....Nat young, or CJ nelson?!

[Jory]

sorry for lack of strong opinion i've been away!

sadly i just sold my bing but you are welcome to pop over and talk noseriders with me sometime or meet up for a surf and try one of mine.

I was meaning the poly fireballs not the surftech, although thats less to do with noseriding per se and more to do with my opinion on the overall feel of the board and thats a whole other thread. NDL is right i am a great surfer.... no i mean it's true i haven't ridden a longboard in anything over head high for about 6 or 7 years, as soon as it's over my shoulders i'm breaking out a fish or hull since i love the feel of those designs and the tighter radius of turns with their decreased length. It's horses for courses though cos ndl rides both long and short at that size.

The shapes royal refers to are very much "a la mode" at the moment and they do noseride well but they are definately harder to noseride, but as he says that can keep it fun. they have a different feel again but are probably not for you, yet! they work because pocket noseriding is about the weight of water on the wide tail of the board, not the surface area of water under you at the nose. NDL is also right that at saunton they are hard work on an average day because the wave is so mushy and slow so a bit of nosewidth does help.

id highly reccomend you read tom wegeners articles here:
http://www.tomwegenersurfboards.com/html/suction.html

and

http://www.tomwegenersurfboards.com/html/rails.html


these are my little pieces of advice on noseriding:
http://adventuresintrim.blogspot.com/20 ... rt-of.html

theres more on pigs here: click the article to enlarge and read!
http://surfapig.blogspot.com/2010/06/hu ... honor.html


it's is all really about how you want your surfing to progress, watch some video clips and get some names of people you aspire to.

like this?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4tnD98oEwZI
like ndl likes. thats a progressive style of board 3 fins etc

or this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZaU9iKcETcQ

like me & probably royal. Gamboas board is a soft railed single fin noserider, if you look closely at his board when hes in the pocket hanging ten, the front 6 inches are not touching the water because the suction on the tail creates the noseride.

[skimmer2]

Imagine being able to surf like those guys.....just amazing. Is that a pig that Gamboa is riding?

[royal]

hey hey hey now...

look, there are pigs and then there are PIGS! I'm not advocating everyone going out and buying one, not by a long shot. I don't want to share....

My arguement is solely based on that huge nose width. A 20" nose will certainly let you noseride just about anywhere, but I personally - get it me - find that in sucky waves, or any steep sections that width becomes a hinderance. A 17" - 18" nose is more than adequate for perching, if the tail is about 15 1/2" to 16" wide. Unless you're a full on shredder like NDL, CJ, Jory , or Bonga, there is no need for a 14" tail. 15" tails used to be pretty standard on HP shortboards until slater and crew's elfshoes came into being...

Anywhoo... back to the widenosed thing...
here's an 8'2" I rode last year all over the SW and NE. It has a 17 1/2" nose, with concave, 15 1/2" scooped deck tail with uprail(suction) and fully rolled bottom. Porthtowan or Aggie for example were super fun on it, and it let me hit the lip and do other tricks:


this is the 1st log I made over here in the UK 9'6"and it has a 16 1/2" nose 16 1/2" tail, chined rails and nose concave. I think the widepoint was bang in the middle:


I sold it last year to a Tynemouth local who was riding a Wingnut surftech and his comment was that he loved the narrow nose because it didn't get stuck in the face on the drop, yet it still allowed noserides in the(pocket of) weak waves.

I think I've made one/two boards in the last year with an 18" nose and widepoint 3" ahead of center. Simon Mitchell has one, and another guy at Saunton. If that is your local spot, maybe it wouldn't hurt, but if you've got any steep sections I would personally advise 18" max nose width.
I'm not trying to get your business, as I think Paul at B&W will make you an awesome progressive board, and I don't want to(not being mean, I only make what I ride so I know they work.) I just think that as an "all arounder" a 19.5" nose is going to be a problem. Pesonally. Doesn't mean I'm right, just saying....


but that's just me in the peanut gallery with my wacky ideas, and "a la mode" boards

[roberdy]

There is some really good info in this thread so I made it a sticky so it can be added to instead of recycling the information every time these questions come up, hope no-one minds, if you do please let me know on the PM.

I'm going to drop the "(anyone got one for sale?" bit off the title in a couple of days once everyone has gotten used to it being a sticky.

Peace

[Jory]

Good idea on the sticky.

I'm glad that my frequent championing of the glory of progressive longboarding has been noted Rob (incidentally prob down your way next weekend if you are about? have the family too)

Gamboa is on a soft railed more paralell templated board, no concave and a greenough ish fin His boards are made by wayne rich. seedling era gamboa footage he'd be riding a tak model t. Gamboas boards are not massivly wide either. theres a shot of him carrying one half way through this clip:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ij3sBeBIQQI around 5 minutes
Alex knost rides more pig shaped boards

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIKI6zWK ... re=related

knosts board is a a dano old pleasure like mine a sort of modified pig.

Everything Royal says is right, width is a hindrance in steeper waves as are fat rails in the nose. My GS log has a 18.5 nose, my jai lee which is a superb noserider is only 18. tails are 16 and 15.5 respectively. The jai lee is better for sure in steep waves.

I would just say a lot of this is about personal preference, about how you want to surf, how you want the board to feel under your weight, how you want to look as you impress the chicks on the beach. Both are valid schools of design theory. Both concepts work but perform better in slightly different conditions or parts of the wave.

Incidentally the prog longboarding helicopter manouver is really a direct result of wide nosed narrow tailed hard railed longboards failing to hold the tail in as you are on the nose in a steep pocket

[Jory]

This is a good example of what royal is talking about with wide tails and narrow noses in beach break

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z2YtBiUx ... re=related

sick noseriding but note that as soon as he's out of the pocket he's cutting back or in a massive cheater 5 til it gets steep again

[curry1curry]

jory- you have a jai lee? ive heard that is very good to noseride but also at turning from the middle and ok in bigger waves?

would love to catch up with you jory and talk boards... how can we hook up? i'd ideally like to find one board that does all i want rather than 2... ive just started demoing some bioards at tiki- tried their tiki classic performer 9' 6" and it was a nice board but am little too big and heavy for me (only being little). titki have been great and have offered that i keep trying boards so will do that!

i hear what youre saying re noseriding smaller surf then using a more performance board for larger surf... maybe thats my way forward.. will have to ask my wife (!!)

thnx for all good advicet o all

[skimmer2]

i'd ideally like to find one board that does all i want rather than 2...

Naaaa.....once you have started with one you will need another and so on for the rest of your days

[Jory]

the white board in this clip is my jai lee, the yellow one is the aforementioned gulfstream

http://vimeo.com/11206677

as far as meeting up goes, pm me. I'm at saunton a lot, pop up and say hi if you spot me.

The jai lee is a superb noserider cant comment on turning from the middle as i tend to surf with a lot of footwork. it's much slimmer than lots of logs with a lot of tail kick. it definately likes a bit of shape in the wave, it prefers a pocket to get locked in.it's still pretty heavy and with my (lack of ) size i wouldn't fancy using it in anything over head high beach break, maybe a lined up point that isnt going to section on you. like i said, i'd break out a fish then anyway.

bottom line, noseriders go in a straight line very well, it's kinda the point in small waves but their size and weight works against them in bigger waves, especially in beachbreak which is by definition unpredictable. Like anything in life, a do it all option wont do a specific thing as well as something designed just for that.

incidentally if you look at the clip really closely, you will see a difference between the turns of the two boards. The yellow one has a raked fin like the rainbow noserider whereas the lee has a very upright pivoty fin. If you look real close you'll see the yellow board turns with a bit more flow, slightly more drawn out lines. It's fairly subtle though

[roberdy]

http://vimeo.com/11206677

Nice clip, gnarly goat boat collision @ 1.23 though