Bar-Of-Soapish Mandalaish shape interbreed?

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Bar-Of-Soapish Mandalaish shape interbreed?

Postby g_baby » Sun Jan 22, 2017 3:05 pm

Dear MSW community,

would like to ask for your experienced knowledge on a Bar-Of-Soap (Hobie/ TW/ etc) shape.
Looks like really, really good surfers enjoy those kinds of shapes - but on the other hand, they probably enjoy riding a living room door in all sorts of conditions.

Tbh, I like the look of those shapes, but haven't got the confidence, neither the water time that I think those sleds need to have to be ridden properly.

I had the rare chance of riding/ paddling a GS CP in Saunton, 5'8, Jools' demo board, and that was totally not my cuppa tea I'm afraid. True and wonderful craftsmanship, no doubt, but paddling and turning/ steering that beast felt super weird.
Still, can't get that sort of shape, or better the blunt nose Soap shape, out of my head.

Well, and that's why I'd love to ask you guys for your opinion. There might be people around knowing both CP and BOS shaped boards, know how they turn, paddle, glide, trimm, accelerate, skim...
I see Mr Warren has carved some kind of belly up front and a double concave, if I'm right, between the fins. Is that combination something important for that sort of blunt nose shape or would a deep single concave almost do the same job?
Would a beefed up (around the 40lts mark) 5'8 feel very corky? Would a 5'10 slightly thinner instead chance much? Got quite a wide stance due to my body height, so do those 2" more in length really change the game? I do fit on my girl's 5'8 Hot Pepper Jelly, but doubt I'd be happy having such a very short board for myself all the time. On the other hand, I always find like "those boards should need to be ridden as short as possible". Do they loose something if I'd go longer but thinner rather than shorter and thicker?
Also, what do you lovely people think about a swallow tail on that sort of shape?

Would be great to hear from someone who has been in the same dilemma before... or even might have shaped something similar in his/ her backyard?

I don't expect a quick reply from those UK South West surfers, as the coast is lighting up right as I speak. Really glad January is good to you guys, be good to each other too.

Happy days, g_baby
Last edited by g_baby on Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:44 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bar-Of-Soap shape any good?

Postby g_baby » Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:15 am

Many thanks, JayP, for pointing out those threads. There are a lot of similarities to my post indeed.
I'm firing yet another question, though: What do you guys think of blunt noses. Is it down to personal preferences or is that an approach to shorten a board to its minimum length with enough foam under the chest and less "nose" further out front? Also, the blunt nose concept, does it improve the glide of the board compared to a more pointier nose, like the "fish nose" (also quite wide under the chest)?
What do you think is the main aspect why all the Ottas, Brittanies, Lumi have got round instead of blunt noses?

Your 5' 8 x 21 1/2 x 2 7/8 sounds very similar to the dims spinning around in my head, and that's not helping, I'm afraid. You being someone obviously being in the water quite a lot (probably less than you wish for, still way more than me) - oh wait, that actually helps! Those dims then aren't right for me!
The Otta, being a Twin, looks really lurvely indeed... Though, also too competitive in size.
Am drawn towards a fish, around the 6ft mark, but thought I'd shorten it a bit with taking off the nose, get the first part hully and continue with that mentioned fishy thing towards the end... the Mandala split tail defo seems to be a new approach on a tail to me, looks like it's got a bit more of foam and a bit more area to it, still dividing that wide tail into two parts. Do you feel a difference to boards that'd have a more Simmonsy tail?

Ah well, thank you for your very quick reply, JayP! I reckon I just have to sort thoughts out first and then commit myself to something similar to those boards pointed out to me.
Chris in Bude will always be an option, too, if I don't find the balls to try creating possibly a dog by myself.

Anyway, many, many thanks so far, JayP!

P.S.: Sorry for not just asking one next question, as proposed at the top, my bad, my dilemma.
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Re: Bar-Of-Soap shape any good?

Postby Jory » Mon Jan 23, 2017 8:49 am

I'm feeling pretty qualified to comment here given that I am the CP of GS fame, and I own a bar of soap and also a mandala superchunk asq

The thing is, they are all very close cousins, just with different tweaks to adjust how they surf and what waves they like.

Broadly speaking, the basic (uncustomised for you) stock seapea is designed for junk waves. The 5'8 has a lot of width and foam and so in that size they are big to turn. The bottom shape is roll into a single concave.

There are two versions of the bar of soap. The early ones were similar widths to the equivalent seapea but with a roll into single then vee'd double concave (spiral vee) they are stringerless too. The blunt nose is really just a visual thing. It maybe carries a tiny bit more width forward but honestly it's more the look. The newer soaps have the same template but are narrower all over. My experience is that both types of soap (ridden both) prefer better shaped waves but I like the spiral vee and I think it generates more speed than the seapea.

The mandala asq is amazing. It's a quad but the main difference is that it is narrower and much more foiled with much thinner rails. Same bottom as the soap. It turns much better as a result (thinner rails easier to bury, less foam) but gives a way a little bit of junk wave ability. I think the fact it's a quad helps too.

For ref I'm 5'6 and 65ish kg, manny is 5'4 x 20.5 x2.5, soaps and seapea 5'2 x 21 something

I love these types of boards but as a note of caution, if you didn't like the seapea you rode, then another version of that from whoever will feel the same unless you reduce the dimensions (Jools would do this for you too) and if you reduce dimensions then it's not going to b as easy to surf
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Re: Bar-Of-Soap shape any good?

Postby g_baby » Mon Jan 23, 2017 9:07 am

Yeah Chris, was actually hoping you'd get the hint and share your 5p to that topic - so thanks for doing so! :-D

As a reference, 6'5 and 90ish/ 85 in summer, probably needs a whole lot of different board. What would a keel fin template in a Mandala shape change compared to the original quad or am I splitting hair/ fins here?

Thanks for the "nose note" as well as the dims note at the end of your post. Reducing dims in thickness and width absolutely makes sense, taking Jools Sea Pea as a reference, but in lenght? That seems to be such a huge step.

Anyway, the bottom contours fog is clearing a bit, thanks to you, Chris! Getting there, I hope, one fine, sunny day.
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Re: Bar-Of-Soap shape any good?

Postby Jory » Mon Jan 23, 2017 4:48 pm

Keels will add lateral drive but feel stiffer to turn and are less friendly backhand.


The thing about the minis Simmons (seapea, bar of soap etc) (&a traditional fish to an extent too) is that they are wide and have a straight rail line and not a huge amount of curve in the template. That's what gives them their wavecatching and impressive lateral speed/ junk wave ability but that straight rail line makes them hard to turn. The solution / balance to that is to ride them short so that the surfer can easily overpower the rail to bring the board around turns. The longer you go, the harder this is to do so you are usually better going a bit shorter and wider/thicker instead. Bear in mind a 5'2 seapea has as much foam as a 6foot speedialler quad fish. Speediallers definitely work in longer lengths as they have more curve in outline but in essence they just re distribute the foam In a different way

Be honest with yourself about your surf ability and time in the water etc. I'm coming around to the idea that what many people should actually be surfing is a mid length egg which has length for glide/paddling but a narrower nose and tail for turns. That's another story but they cover a big range.
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Re: Bar-Of-Soap shape any good?

Postby g_baby » Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:00 pm

Thanks, Chris, for all the help here, really.

The Egg is my current board, in volan and quad or single etc., (around the 40+ltrs in 6'3)so plenty of life in that beauty, which I reckon will be around for many, many more years to come. And the longboard, with which I've started out, sits in the lumber room, waiting for me to get older, wiser and less sportive (NO offence to any following longboarders! Seriously, love that kind of style very much.).
So it feels like I really should try something, I really should go somewhere else than the egg.

And here we go, no shortboard, but a short board, no thruster, but something with thrust, no pointy nose, but a nose that points me into a direction (best: down the line as quickly as possible with the benefit of turning properly where ever I want to go). And then, there's always the time in the water and the routine, that comes round the corner every now and then, but who know how often that can be in the future...

Thanks for trying to help me here, very much appreciated indeed!

So that Mandala shape is quite parallel, too, right? And that, combined with the bottom, rail and rocker, is why those kind of templates are faaaaaaast?
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Re: Bar-Of-Soap shape any good?

Postby Jory » Mon Jan 23, 2017 6:07 pm

The mandala is still fairly parallel but less so than the other shapes which is why it turns better. It's also an inch narrower than my soap/seapea and much more foiled. It's almost verging on a fish with some Simmons elements.

Have you though about a quad fish or roundtail quad? I think it sort of comes down to how you want to surf and what you envisage surfing it in. The Simmons shapes draw very specific lines, a fish draws similar but subtly different ones, a bit more carve a bit less slide a bit more hold a bit less Junkability

With all these different "alternative" shapes ( which let's remember mostly came out of long boarders looking back to the past for things to ride in bigger waves ) there's often a compromise somewhere and often each different design does one particular thing / feeling well at the expense of others
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Re: Bar-Of-Soap shape any good?

Postby g_baby » Tue Jan 24, 2017 3:54 pm

Aaahh, it's such a good board (MSW) here to have. Thank you so much, JayP and Chris, the fog is clearing, finally. Thanks to you two and your patient observation. It probably still needs some kind of communication to get the sun through the clouds, but, at last, I can see a light somewhere.

I do like the way, people surf a keel fish. Also, the shortage of a Simmons seems to be attractive to me. I won't find a way around limitations, different shapes will bring along, but a combination of those both seems to be quite sexy to me.

So here we go, rather shorter and thicker, but with decent rails and a little more curvy outline than a "cut-off longboard", paired with a suitable rocker, modern bottom contours and keels/ cutaway keels - the picture is being drawn. Me likey (a lot)!

Again, thanks a million, JayP and Chris for patiently answering questions or pointing me into directions - that's what I hoped (in my wildest dreams) to get from a board like this one here!

Keep up the good spirit, cheers.
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Re: Bar-Of-Soap shape any good?

Postby gavtheoldskater » Wed Jan 25, 2017 8:42 pm

personally i think if you see a board that interests you just buy it, surf it and figure it out. they all do the same thing, just differently. i really don't go with all this demoing stuff rubbish.

i thought the deal with a blunt nose was that it allowed for a longer rail line.
a world of waves and a world of ways to ride them!
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Re: Bar-Of-Soap shape any good?

Postby g_baby » Thu Jan 26, 2017 3:03 pm

Cool, thanks for the advice, gavtheoldskater!

The problem with "buy it when you like it" is the dough that's missing - and tbh, with my water time I cannot justify having a serious quiver. And when the dough's finally here, the rationalist comes into play.
I know, surfing isn't very much a sport for rationalists.

Have a good'un, and thanks again, that longer railline does make sense on such a short package.
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Re: Bar-Of-Soap shape any good?

Postby Jory » Thu Jan 26, 2017 8:20 pm

So yeah blunt nose does give longer rail line for the same overall length equals more drive/speed at the expense of turning ability because the rail line is straighter. Short length in sims overcomes this. Point I was making above is that the actual template of most of these designs is pretty similar and the differences are more cosmetic if you lay the boards down side by side.

I think gav is right, there's no perfect board, they are all different compromises and almost anything can be ridden in almost anything condition wise to a certain extent given enough practice/ skills. Pick something weird and enjoy its idiosyncrasies or pick something from the middle of the road and enjoy its ease of use and versatility but maybe miss out on some quirks. Quirk can be fun!
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Re: Bar-Of-Soap shape any good?

Postby g_baby » Fri Jan 27, 2017 9:51 pm

"Conquest is easy. Control is not." Captain Kirk aka Captain Quirk, methinks.

Seriously, you guys helped plenty, cheers for that!
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Re: Bar-Of-Soap shape any good?

Postby nawgy1979 » Sat Jan 28, 2017 8:21 am

Hey, I have a GS Seapea in 5'4 and I previously had a 5'2 Bing mini sim.
I love both; but a larger Bing in 5'4 would be perfect for me - they are quicker and more agile than the Seapea in my opinion and it surfed more like a fish for me and had a very wide surf range.
Shame you can't get them anymore.
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Re: Bar-Of-Soap shape any good?

Postby g_baby » Sat Jan 28, 2017 9:04 am

nawgy1979 wrote:Shame you can't get them anymore.

I assume it's not the Puck model then?

But owning a 5'2 Bing, there is probably someone in the country being able to tweak it to 5'4 one fine day? Lucky you.
Is the Bing a twin or a quad, if I may ask? Also, how wide is you Bing sled - just to get more references...
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Re: Bar-Of-Soap shape any good?

Postby nawgy1979 » Thu Feb 02, 2017 2:50 pm

It was a Bing mini sim (I regrettably sold it) - they don't seem to do them anymore as the Puck replaced it as a quad version (mine was a keel twin), although that might do custom orders.
I cant recall the dims.
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Re: Bar-Of-Soap shape any good?

Postby g_baby » Fri Feb 03, 2017 7:08 pm

Ah, no worries, nawgy1979, thanks for replying, though.
Have a great day!
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Re: Bar-Of-Soapish Mandalaish shape interbreed?

Postby g_baby » Sun Feb 12, 2017 10:49 am

Ok, after having started that post and getting your supportive feedback, it felt like I have got homework to do.

Took out the pencil and started, kind of old-fashioned, without Aku or any CAD app, and here's the result.
Again, your thoughts are very welcome, regarding the outline and the way she could feel like in the water from the look of her.

5'10-21-2 3/4
It's just the outline, and I was thinking of a slight belly up front, into some concave through the middle, and maybe a deeper single or even a spiral V through the fins section to a V out the tail. Uhm, sounds geekish, difficult and maybe a bit over the technical top, but yeah, reckon that's me then.

Any recommendations towards how to get the rocker in there? How to draw, sketch the rocker line for a mainly weaker, softer wave? Seriously thinking of backyarding her, if I manage to sort out some space for that.
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Re: Bar-Of-Soapish Mandalaish shape interbreed?

Postby JayP » Mon Feb 13, 2017 11:26 am

Nice outline. I like it although I'd quad it but I'm sure it will fly as a twin.

No idea at all how to draw a rocker outline on paper. From my very limited experience I would suggest your rocker is dependant on the blank you choose. If you choose say a 6'2 fish blank the rocker is basically in it already to a degree. You just have to decide wether you want to add more to the tail or nose by the way you shape it.
Most people recomend not taking too much foam off the deck as the foam is denser toward the top (on many blanks) so the blank choice has a big part to play in rocker. Most Simmons shapes have little or no rocker - the belly of the hull shaped nose creates some variable rocker so the rails have more rocker than the belly. For this reason if you can't find a Simmons blank you could use a log blank but its more expensive and quite wasteful. I just used a 6'2 fish blank for my 5'8 and lay the template on from the tail so the rocker ended up less in the nose than the blank intended.
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Re: Bar-Of-Soapish Mandalaish shape interbreed?

Postby g_baby » Mon Feb 13, 2017 10:29 pm

Thanks JayP, quite pleased with the outline myself - was mainly fishing for compliments :D .

Is there a particular reason why you'd set her up as a quad? Or is it just personal preferences.
Got a quad already, and am highly tempted to a Keel/ Twin fin; though, she'd work first and it would be a real bummer if she'd just work as a quad.
If so, what would I possibly need to change to keel fin her?

Also, many thanks for the hint regarding the blank. Sure the 602 fish blank looks sweet - taming her from the tail is the way forward I guess, cheers for that!
Does anybody have experiences with preshaped blanks? Seen the factories offer preshaped, but am unsure on both the price and the result.
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Re: Bar-Of-Soapish Mandalaish shape interbreed?

Postby g_baby » Mon May 15, 2017 5:05 pm

Dear helpful weeders,

the project continues and I've started to use some CAD software to get a more refined image of what's in my head.
I now come across those numbers and wonder whether someone on here can tell me whether the foam distribution from back to front is too much shifted to the front? Don't really know whether that's possible by looking at those numbers but I really hope some experienced eye can tell my roughly whether to balance the foam thickness along the stringer evenly or what I could gain from having a slightly thicker board under the chest than under the feet? Also, what might I loose with having the foam up front?

Thanks in advance, g_baby
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fishy design numbers
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