What next? Board question

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What next? Board question

Postby Scoobs » Fri Sep 29, 2017 2:15 pm

Afternoon all, so I'm in the market for a new board, the household magic carpet is too long to be my second board at 7' 8" (the other one is a longboard) so I'm looking for something to replace it. I'm 6'2 and not far south of 100 kg and I was thinking of an eggy thing, then Down the line suggested a Pukas 69er 6'10 by 22 1/4 by 3 1/16 (or a Takayama egg but I don't have the budget for a new one!). Spoke to someone at Gulf Stream and they suggested a fish, I asked about the Egg plant and whoever it was said yeah that would work too - I was surprised the fish was suggested first.
So I have a few questions. I have vague memories of a thread on here discussing Fishes saying that once they got above a certain length they weren't really fishes any more, and I'm a bit concerned that the Speed Dialler (GS fish suggestion)won't be floaty enough unless it is quite long) Egg plant would make more sense to me (other eggs are available....), anyone got any experience of Pukas boards or thoughts on the 69er. Meanwhile apart from the Takayama which has just appeared in the for sale section (not wide or thick enough for me I suspect) second hand eggs seem about as common as hen's teeth sadly. I've read Goats experience with the Speed Dialler and his egg plant replacement and suspect we are of a similar skill level so my instinct is to go that way. Can anyone see anything I'm missing?
Cheers all.
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Re: What next? Board question

Postby Jory » Sun Oct 01, 2017 11:34 am

Depends how you see yourself surfing.

A proper egg is a good step down off a longboard. If it's properly foiled it will still paddle into waves early but you should still be able to duck dive it. It will have a wide range of wave sizes that it works in. The longer rail line of an egg will also give you a little bit more inherent glide and therefore time just stood there without having to pump the board.

The 69er is basically a fat shortboard and not a bad choice if that's the sort of surfing you aspire too.

Eggs are not that fashionable and many people don't understand they are different to a mini mal. The speedialler is an easy surfing board and will stil work in mid 6'. They have more foam hidden in there than you think.
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Re: What next? Board question

Postby Goat » Sun Oct 01, 2017 1:34 pm

Yeah, an egg and speed dialer surf completely differently.

You'll catch more waves on an egg, and it's more controlled and smooth off the tail. You can properly lay it over on bottom turns and it just carves beautiful arcs. Very controlled and smooth. But it also lacks the bursts of speed, straight line pace and duck dive-ability that a speed dialer has.

Overall though, I find the egg more versatile and more fun in (most) conditions. Back in England that's usually 2-4ft average waves. And on holiday in Peniche at the moment it's handling 5-6ft powerful waves brilliantly.

At 72kg I can *just* about duck dive it, but not deeply.

Plan to buy another speed dialer, probably 6'4" at some point, as they offer such a different ride.

Up-to you...maybe both? :wink:
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Re: What next? Board question

Postby Tomdiddlybomb » Sun Oct 01, 2017 2:20 pm

I'd say the thing about fish not being fish over a certain length only really applies to proper twin keels, a speed dialler in generous proportions would work in damn near any conditions and would offer a nice alternative to a longboard without being too similar or too much of a giant leap
that being said my vote would be get a short fat keel fin, maybe 5'10/6'0, it would still hide heaps of foam and be super fast and loose. push yourself :wink:
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Re: What next? Board question

Postby Archy_is_God » Mon Oct 02, 2017 12:44 pm

An Egg will be more forgiving in most conditions and friendlier going backside to a wave, whilst the fish will excel in down-the-line surf and be more fussy about how you put onto a rail.

Larger fish are a deviation from the original S-turning, barrel-riding kneeboard type shapes but still have their own merits, especially in slopey-but-fast walled up waves

A well designed mini mal i.e. one with a bit of thought gone into it by a shaper who knows what will work, will be a surprisingly versatile and fun board too at around 7'1" or 7'2", if not very 'cool'....
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Re: What next? Board question

Postby Scoobs » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:16 pm

Thanks for the replies folks,
I think the first big question is from Jory 'How do I see myself surfing' - good one - not sure. Another one is what do I see myself surfing (waves I mean) is this board for bigger waves or instead of the Longboard, I think the answer is mainly for bigger waves although it would be nice if the board will go in anything for the times when I can't transport a longboard to the beach. I think I'll put down the thick fat shortboard idea which leaves eggs and fishes
I watch Devon Howard surf an egg and think I want to ride like that. I've also watched a few fish excerpts on Youtube, mostly in small waves and not looking hugely elegant but that may be the standard of the surfing, so any one got a quick link to a clip or two of some quality fish surfing and egg action which highlight the difference?

Goat I like the sound of the egg especially flexibility, fun and catching more waves 'cos lets face it if I'm not catching waves then I might as well go for a swim, and I won't progress. What are the dims of your egg goat? I've got nearly 30kg more than you to sink the board with which will help with the duck diving but not with the wave catching. The idea of being able to duck dive is very nice. As is the idea of two boards but that won't get past higher command not even with a birthday coming!

As for the 5'10 keel fin fish I'm all for pushing myself but within reason!

Off to Gulf stream tomorrow as I am out and about so I'll have chat with them.

Cheers folks
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Re: What next? Board question

Postby Scoobs » Mon Oct 02, 2017 1:46 pm

HI Archy looks like our post crossed - the egg is looking more and more likely..... In which case the next question will be how much foam and how do I want the shape. I'm talking length width thickness here - I'm inclined to trust the shaper if I am getting one made. I'm wary though as I have gone to big (with the magic carpet) and too small (with a big boys shortboard) in the past....
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Re: What next? Board question

Postby Jory » Mon Oct 02, 2017 3:17 pm

An egg will definitely be an easier transition. Especially if you go for a longer one. Devon howard is pretty much the definition of style on an egg. If you're an intermediate surfer then there will be less of a learning curve and it would still allow you to drive through some roundhouse turns and progress.

For quality fish surfing see dan Malloy here. The first wave is a speedialler.



https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=UduzEpqNwBM

Also see here

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=JoUtrUf6AtI

Duck diving is partly technique. I can duckdive this 7'10 x 22 x 2.6 and I weigh maybe 66kg

Image

That's a Gulfstream "eggplant" officially although it's a full custom in reality. Ask Jools about CP's midlength for the low down.

Basically a longer length 7'6 say will draw longer lines and paddle in easier, shorter ones are more manoeuvrable but have less natural trim so require more input from you to keep it going like a fish would. Devon howard is probably closer to your size and for him 7'2 is the sweet spot. I'm obviously smaller (5'7 and 10.5 stone) and I have one of devon Howard's eggs in a 6'10. It's beautiful to surf but needs more wave face/ speed than the 7'10 to get going. I can duckdive that easily too.

Remember these boards are not your magic carpet. They are narrower in the nose and tail, a lot more foiled out and with more of a downrail so they surf much more performancey. Don't go single fin, go with a 2+1 set up, they work better!

Also google the Devon howard surf splendour podcast and jump to 71 minutes for some good egg info!


Ps I've got both fish and eggs in my quiver. Like I said, the egg is not fashionable in the uk whereas the fish is but it's an overlooked design that would be really functional for lots of average surfers.
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Re: What next? Board question

Postby Liam Wall » Mon Oct 02, 2017 4:22 pm

Sounds like you've already decided on the egg.

I've got a GS speed dialler, and the volume/planing area means it can go in fairly small waves, but I find it a bit frustrating unless the waves are fairly punchy, or at least chest high. Better surfers than me might be able to make it work, but I personally don't find the speed dialler a good grovel board. That's one more thing in favour of an egg, if you're after a board that will go in most conditions...
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Re: What next? Board question

Postby Goat » Mon Oct 02, 2017 5:46 pm

Scoobs - dimensions of mine are 6'10" x 21 3/4" x 2 6/8".

I could have gone lots smaller, but deliberately went longer, for a) higher wave count/early entry, b) more glide in average waves, and c) more carving turns. Kind of depends what you value most.

I can ride a 6'0" fish fine, and had a lot of fun on them in the past, riding one exclusively for about 3 years. But as poster also said above, personally I find them a little frustrating and disappointing unless the waves are 3ft+ with some punch. Some sessions were magical, but relatively few and far between.

Take today for example. Average day at Lagide in Peniche. 3-4ft semi clean, but not much power. Yet I caught 25-30 waves in an hour and a half, lovely lateral speed and swooping bottom/top turns. Just a hunch, but the same day on a 6ft fish would probably have resulted in half the wave count, and less face time.

Conversely, 3 days ago it was 6ft, punchy swell. And while the egg was great, a small fish would have been ideal! Not to mention less of a handful.

Ultimately though, it all comes down to what you want prioritise and trade off. All boards are a compromise.

Can you test ride?
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Re: What next? Board question

Postby Jory » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:34 pm

Fish are incredibly versatile boards. Personally if I could only own two boards it would be a heavy 9'4 single fin log and either my 5'6 GS keel or my 5'4 mandala superchunk which is a blend of quad fish and mini-Simmons and is probably the perfect everyday shortboard for me in our waves but.......

I had a conversation with Devon Howard (who I've always admired) probably about 12 years ago when he was in the U.K. And travelling with only a 7'6 2 +1 egg. Back then he was evangelising about how a proper egg was the perfect single travel board. There's a design line that comes out of San Diego in the late sixties and has existed in that area of California since which is distinct from the mini mal and magic carpet thing that has been big in Europe and Oz. Skip Frye, Takayama, Larry mabile, Bob Mitsven all make versions of the egg that have been refined since then. It's a line Devon reiterated in surfers journal a couple of years back and continues to push. From my experience it makes a lot of sense. There's something beautiful about the long rail line engaging in turns, the high line glide in trim, the way they paddle in early and flow through flat spots, the hold that rail line gives you in steeper waves. They have inherent trim speed with no effort and they don't need the same effort to keep moving. That length smoothes out your style.


Realistically under chest high waves, a longboard is going to be the easiest board to surf. A small keel fish or some kind of minisimmons are great fun in chest high waves IF you have the small board skills to make them go - a short length (like 5'4) lets you wrap big turns in a small wave face and a good twin keel or seapea/ superchunk type board will generate tonnes of speed with good technique. Developing those skills takes time. A proper egg will cruise in under chest high and light up with a head high plus face to draw on. You don't need to go too short at all, just keep it foiled out and refined.
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Re: What next? Board question

Postby Jory » Mon Oct 02, 2017 7:49 pm

https://vimeo.com/160330573

Watch from 1.32 DH on a 6'10 FCD huevo ranchero. Almost looks like a day over here. Notice his economy of movement, he's not pumping between turns because of the natural trim speed the board has from its length and yet he's cutting some smooth tight arcs by moving his back foot over the fin cluster when he's cutting back.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=LCua3mzcLcg

Similar, maybe slightly faster waves, Rob Machado obviously an amazing surfer, on a small fish. Much more radical turns because the board is looser and shorter so fits a tighter arc but, even though machado is very smooth, notice how much effort he's putting in to keep the speed coming. The board is always on a rail, always moving with subtle pumps to keep it from stopping.
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Re: What next? Board question

Postby Scoobs » Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:40 pm

Thank you all for the replies folks, and the links to the clips. Jory your fish action is much more elegant than the stuff I had found. Important for me to remember I am not Devon Howard, Dan Malloy or Rob Machado and I never will be. My skill level is not that high and a board that is going to help me keep progressing is important. That is why I'm leaning towards an egg right now. I'm off to Woolacombe tomorrow, maybe GS have a demo I can try...
Thanks again folks
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Re: What next? Board question

Postby Archy_is_God » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:09 am

Derek Hynd and Tom Curren riding fishes at JBay are good examples of world class surfers at a world class wave (Hynd in the movie 'Litmus' and TC in 'Searching for Tom Curren' and 'Beyond the Boundaries')

Watch some clips of Dave Rastovich and Asher Pacey on fishes too if you get a chance, they have them dialled.
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Re: What next? Board question

Postby Archy_is_God » Tue Oct 03, 2017 10:15 am

Good thread, this.. bit like the old days :D
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Re: What next? Board question

Postby Goat » Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:57 am

That last clip of of Burch is insane. So much control and poise, in very chunky waves.
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Re: What next? Board question

Postby Tomdiddlybomb » Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:50 pm

thankfully someone backing me up with the vote for the fish! I also ride a 5'4 and once I figure out where to do it I'm going to shape a 5'2. I'm 5'8 and 70kg, size up appropriately. (I'm not an incredible surfer, I just have fun, and the fish is by far the most fun iteration of a wave sliding device I've ever had)

the 5'4 was my one board quiver from knee high to an honest double overhead (not too steep but steep enough) the last few months in sri lanka/indo/NZ
it's stepped my surfing up a LOAD. more volume than my 6'0 shortboard, less rocker so more speed... I can't recommend one enough

an egg finds more speed when in trim, but is slower to accelerate when pumping, and only draws quite wide arcs on the wave, whereas a fish will draw long lines but with your back foot thrown all the way back will turn sharply without losing speed.

I've got to ask, at the moment, on your magic carpet what sort of level of surfing are you at? trimming down the line? pumping to make sections? cutbacks? hitting the lip etc?
and how often do you get in the water in waves over waist/chest height?
that will probably be the deciding factor

I just wish I'd had someone kick me up the arse 4-5 years ago and tell me to get a short fish and surf nothing else for a year. instead I got an egg and while I love it, it just goes unridden now.
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Re: What next? Board question

Postby Jory » Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:48 pm

Good post!

There is an argument that surfing the egg helped you get more out of the fish than if you had gone straight to it. Don't get me wrong, I think short fish and mini sim style boards are ace and until a couple of years ago they were all I surfed apart from logs. They're still what I ride anytime the surf is chest plus. I just think for the OP he might find an egg an easier transition

would be interesting to know what the OP feels is the limitation with the carpet?!
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Re: What next? Board question

Postby ears » Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:27 pm

god this is a good thread!!

I have to agree with Jory re perhaps enjoying the fish as a result of spending a bit of transition time on an egg.. I made the same transition and it makes a lot of sense. I now love both style of board and have also spent a lot of time down the rabbit hole of displacement hulls as a result of riding logs and eggs.. currently on a bit of a long fish trip - great boards but trickier to ride than an egg imho.. you get all the trim of the egg but faster out the gate with the keels and i think they :-D turn marginally quicker - they also hold the most extreme high line of any board i've ridden which is a real hoot.. anyway, just chucking something else into the mix.. carry on!!
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Re: What next? Board question

Postby Scoobs » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:21 pm

Thanks for the replies folks. Reason I'm looking to replace the Carpet is I think it's too long, combination of trying to get one board to do too many jobs and me being over cautious when it was made. I think it's more foam than I need in a second board when I will probably ride ride a longboard when the surf is small. It feels like a short longboard which is not what I am after. I suspect if the board was a few inches shorter this thread would never have started as I would be perfectly happy.
The other thing I'm thoughtful about is water time and currently ability level - trim yes cut back yes I have hit the odd lip, board feels a bit long to pump as I find I'm shuffling my feet about a lot - this might be the skill level thing as if I had my feet in the right place I would be able to. Maybe I should just surf what I've got a bit more and come back later?
I borrowed GS's demo speed dialler today and took it for a paddle - was pleasantly surprised that I could paddle it although I can't pretend I caught many waves - which is why I might just go away and keep going with what I've got - I could spout racing drivers excuses about onshore and long paddle outs but they are only excuses - fitness and skill level are facts. Which is why if I am going to change, something eggy would probably make more sense.
I did just miss a speed dialler on eBay that went for £200 - that would have been a relatively inexpensive experiment....
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Re: What next? Board question

Postby Tomdiddlybomb » Tue Oct 03, 2017 8:45 pm

it seems like the forum is still alive and kicking after all

what sort of size was the board?
it's a very different technique catching waves on a shorter board than something like a carpet or log that glides in, I wouldn't let that deter you too much, it's something you get used to, it just takes an adjustment in how you read waves. How was it once you were up and riding?

sounds like you've figured out what you want, but I'd recommend testing a couple more boards before you pull the trigger, can't hurt
in reality you'll be very very happy with an egg, it'll be familiar but easier to turn, and have a big range in wave size, just perhaps less exciting. a bit more 'short longboard' than a fish would feel.
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Re: What next? Board question

Postby Archy_is_God » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:09 pm




Oh yes, him too :-)
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Re: What next? Board question

Postby Archy_is_God » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:09 pm

Get both.. easy answer :lol:
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Re: What next? Board question

Postby Archy_is_God » Tue Oct 03, 2017 9:14 pm

Steer clear of oversized shortboards unless they are designed to be 'big' in the first place... guys like Gerry Lopez and Wayne Lynch know how to do this, but larger CAD files of what John John rides will not work unless you are a 6'8" + 16st shredder.
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Re: What next? Board question

Postby Goat » Wed Oct 04, 2017 2:30 am

Water time is pretty key. Likewise, while you can go shorter and shorter as you progress, it doesn't make longer, more unfashionable shapes obsolete. Skills are transferable.

Over the 12 years or so of surfing, I've slowly dropped down, incrementally from 7'6", down to 6'0", of varying shapes and designs. A 6'0" fish was great when I was surfing at least once a week, with a couple of holidays abroad a year, longboard skating every day. Fitness and ability were a good match, to getting a lot out of it.

Then 2 years of general life admin getting in the way, resulted in only going once every 2-3 weeks. And then, suddenly a shorter fish no longer made that much sense. I.e. fitness and keeping my eye in dropped off a fair bit, making a smaller fish hard work most of the time. Hence the move back to a longer, more forgiving egg.

The thing is, all the experience on all previous boards (including shorter fish), meant stepping back on to a slightly longer, more forgiving board, has resulted in maximum wavecount and progression, over a range of conditions. Such a move was deliberate to maximise enjoyment from available water time and fitness.

In recent months, it's back to going about once a week, so again, the progression has ramped up. So I'm keen to buy another fish soon, as they're so fricking fast and fun on a rail. Will the egg be condemned to the scrap heap? No chance! It's so utterly fluid and fun to surf, with a 'solid' and planted feel in carves I've not experienced with other boards. Not to mention the wavecount. For me, it'll still be a go to for most sessions I reckon.

As Archy and Jory have said, an egg will probably be more conducive to progression, all things being equal. But fish are bloody brilliant too, and will push you more in at the deep end, for what they demand.
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Re: What next? Board question

Postby Scoobs » Wed Oct 04, 2017 9:49 am

This is a great thread thank you folks, for the advice and the great clips, I really like the style of these guys riding fishes.
Tom, board was 6'8 and I think 20 and a bit wide and something like 2 3/4 thick - I was pleasantly suprised by how floaty it felt and I intend to get back down and have another go when the waves are bit cleaner. Size wise I felt it was probably long enough not sure about width - that would be part of a conversation with Jools. Good point re approach and positioning for wave catching. Up and riding it felt ok, went from rail to rail real quick for me - to a point where it felt wobbly - like a skateboard with very loose trucks, (I suspect that might be the whole point) but I haven't ridden any board like that for a very long time if indeed ever. I am also going to try out a couple of eggy things from other places.
Interestingly the lady at Gulf Stream didn't really think en egg plant was such a great idea, but I'm still a bit unsure why, I think it was to do with tail and nose width and float, conversation to be revisited perhaps.
Archy I love your problem solving approach and agree both is the obvious solution but I won't get that one past higher command (SWMBO). And yes I am going to steer clear of oversized shortboards. A certain well known shaper tried to encourage me on to an egg sometime ago and very foolishly I ignored his advice as I hadn't let go of the idea of riding a thruster, I have now!
Goat I think you've nailed it, I need to be realistic about water time, family commitments etc etc. At the moment the sensible voice is erring towards something eggy and the gun ho aspirational optimist who loved carrying a fish down the beach because it was so light is whispering 'something fishy, go on you know you want to'. It's nice position to be in so I'm keeping an eye on the charts for a good reason to skive off for a day again soon.
Meanwhile I'd better go earn some money thanks again folks
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Re: What next? Board question

Postby Scoobs » Wed Oct 04, 2017 3:36 pm

After a quick eBay trawl I found a watershed shegg - anyone know anything about these craft? Are they generic shapes? made in China? Not many details on the listing. Wasn't Watershed a sort of lifestyle shop / brand / cafe in Newquay?
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Re: What next? Board question

Postby Liam Wall » Wed Oct 04, 2017 4:59 pm

I'm fairly sure they are designed by Luke Hart and built the Toy Factory in Newquay, like Fourth...
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